Sorry but for many repectable breeders and Dogleaders it is fraud and you can explain watever you want i can't understand it.
Why the correct parents are not taken over at the NVBK pedigree? Who has so much fantasy by the NVBK to leaves itsself al the wrong names and lines??
The NVBK is standing alone with this. The Dogleaders in the belgium FCI Ring also want papers for their dogs. With a FCi pedigree i can start at all kinds of dog sport only the NVBK. Where can you start with NVBK papers. That a pedigree is only a piece of paper is not new. But if have a lot of knwoing about seperat lines it helps with breeding. If a dog without uncorrect papers has a big illness in his line. Where can you find it out? It is a big ?
Our opinios are however so different that i stop with this an leave jou in the fait that the NVBK an his Ring are the one and only and the people of the IPO (so like me) with their papers are wrong. I can live with this.
But the NVBK dogs likes to be stud dogs in the FCI and the good people van the NVBK likes to give seminars by the stupid IPO people because money does not stink.
I'm not happy with the situation either but what do you do if you want to play with NVBK and want to breed with international recognised pedigrees? Can you give me an awnser to this one.
The reason NVBK had to start a register of its own is due to the politics of SH who mis-uses its monopoly
You said:"The NVBK is standing alone with this. The Dogleaders in the belgium FCI Ring also want papers for their dogs. " And i know quit a few who get their dogs with NVBK breeders
You said:"Our opinios are however so different that i stop with this an leave jou in the fait that the NVBK an his Ring are the one and only and the people of the IPO (so like me) with their papers are wrong. I can live with this."
I have never said or thought anything like that and i find it quit insulting that you put these words in my mouth.
You said:"But the NVBK dogs likes to be stud dogs in the FCI and the good people van the NVBK likes to give seminars by the stupid IPO people because money does not stink. "
If this happens it is because there is a demand for such things and you may have the best studdog or the best knowledge if there is no-one who wants to use yourr dog and your knowledge you cannot sell it simple economics "supply and demand " first lesson
I am not convinced that it is called cheating that a dog has 2 pedigrees but it is only confusing and not good in general since I think that it remains no longer transparent. It becomes quiet complicated to track offspring etc if you constantly have to be aware that a dog might have 2 pedigrees
In my opinion the one causing the problem here is the NVBK. That they issue their own pedigrees for dogs bred by NVBK breeders is not a problem but for dogs bred under the FCI they could just recognise the FCI pedigree and keep on using the FCI stud book number. If I would have a dog which I bought in another country like the Netherlands, I will need to register with SH before I can particpate in any sport activity. The dog will keep its NHSB papers. This way it becomes transparent.
Please keep in mind that THIS FORUM IS DEDICTATED TO THE BSD and not to what extent it is right that SH has the monopoly on issueing pedigrees. Whether or not A'Tim is the dog Bjorn is looking for is for him to decide, although I think his opinion became clear if you read the previous messages.
Kind regards, Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
It works 2 ways NVBK SH and SH NVBK SH doesn't recognise NVBK papers and even threatens to exclude anyone who is a member or works with an non-FCI organisation. So like i said the only reasonable solution is the french wone with something like SIRE in Belgium. That would mean that SH has to give up its leverage which it will not do
No problem for me but in France the pedigree is not given automatically. The dog has to meet the breed standard to a certain degree (and then we are not talking about working quality) otherwise they will not obtain a pedigree.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
with the french Puppy-pedigree you have no problems in other lands. They are recocnized as real papers. Only in france the dog must be selection? at a show for obtaine the real pedigree. with the second number.
But you are right it is only a show result ant has nothing to do with work qualities.
I invoked SIRE as an independant organisation so problems on recognising dogs between SN NVBK Kennel would be in the past. The modalities??? I haven't a clue right now
Johan explains it wrong. What I meant is that these two dogs that I know are bred inside the NVBK and have NVBK papers and got an FCI pedigree when they were older. That is impossible because they have both NVBK parents. And I know that this dog A?tim/ Dovrefjoeld Vasco his both pedigrees aren?t right. And when some one buys a puppy out off these lines he thinks he got these blood lines and thats could fraud any way you look at it. And now my question is how can a NVBK dog get an made up FCI pedigree with false parents? And this consurence me.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 11:17:34 PM by Bjorn »
In Belgium, a "non-pedigree" dog (meaning the dog has no LOSH pedigree) can obtain a SH pedigree (ALSH number) when he scores a very good on 2 shows under 2 different judges (which A'Tim apparently did). But I thought Dovre Fjeld was a kennel recognized by the Norwegian Kennel Organization and therefore has a FCI pedigree.
Sorry if I seem to be a bit stupid but could you then please explain me what is exactly wrong with Dovre Fjelds Vasco/A'Tim's pedigree. Is it that he has 2 pedigrees (first FCI and then NBVK on top) or is there something else wrong?
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
What is wrong with this pedigree is that A?tim didn?t do these shows and second Dovre Fjeld is a Belgium kennel. And A?Tim is a dog hoo had first an NVBK pedigree and later an made up FCI Pedigree. And what I have said his NVBK pedigree isn?t wright eather. The father on the pedigree isn?t the father. The name off the father is Uvito a dog with an FCI pedigree but this dog isn?t named on the NVBK pedigree. Plus the Dovre Fjeld Vasco Pedigree is made up. Infact this dog doesn?t excist. So is this with this dog cold Zot, he is bred inside the NVBK and has papers out off France with an made up FCI Pedigree and his name on this pedigree is Netchy de Mallassagne. Now I find this very disturbing when people say it is allright too do this, don?t you?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2004, 11:53:05 PM by Bjorn »
You say that:"Plus the Dovre Fjeld Vasco Pedigree is made up. Infact this dog doesn?t excist"Posted on 04/11/2004
If this is true how do you rhime this with another of your messages posted 16/10/2004 about A'tim namely:"I have a paper that said that all people that have a Dovrefjeld Vasco on the pedigree as the father they must send it back to Sint Hubert but know he has got a FCI pedigree it is sick"
If the dog doesn't excist according SH how can he figure on the pedigree as the father of his sons?
As a result of this discussion about A'Tim, I went to look for his pedigree on the internet (if it is such a great dog one would expect to find his pedigree on the internet). I have not been able to find it neither under the name Dovre Fjeld Vasco nor under the name A'Tim. Instead of this I found a forum (in Dutch) talking about A'Tim and there I found also comments on the fact that his pedigree is fake (Father on FCI pedigree is not the actual father).
But again (see other topics) this cheating also takes place in The Netherlands (KNPV) and probably in other countries. It is not correct and I find it very logical that in case A'Tims pedigree is fake, all his descendants loose their right to an FCI pedigree and Dovre Fjeld should loose their right to have a kennel. Johan said earlier that in case he would have a dog who's pedigree would be revoked by SH, he would file a law suit against SH based on monopoly forming. But I think in that case you could also file a criminal lawsuite against the people who cheated: Valsheid in geschrifte en Misbruik van vertrouwen (in English: Forging of Documents and breach of confidence). In case you know that there are problems with a dog's pedigree and you do not mind this you accept the risk that your dog's pedigree could be revoked. Basically, you know the rules and if you break them, you have to pay the consequences.
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I?ve heard that now the NVBK took his pedigree back, And this dog has now a FCI Pedigree and is competing in Mondio ring or starts competing in mondio ring. I think that SH made an big error.
Im really disturbed by reading all this... I allways thought of the kennel Dovre Fjeld all the best and even wonted to get a dog from them. How can you be sure to get what you wont when buying abroad? What about this, all the stud dogs that are mentioned here. http://www.caninebiotech.com Even if there was a problem with his pedigree, as I can see from clips working abilities should not be in question. Im a little bit confused with all this...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2004, 08:40:05 PM by Maja »
As far as I am concernd A-tims video clips look great and I don?t doubt into his work abilities.
But if there is something wrong with pedigree (and it seems there is) pedigree should be rewoked.
Mixes (not all but some) can be great working dogs no doubt about it but a mix is still a mix and cannot compete (on lower levels maybe).
On the A-tims homepage you can see dogs to which father was A-tim and some really look more like german shepherd than a malinois. Do they mix ? I don?t know.. It is on FCI and people that are really experts in malinois to make judgment and to take actions.
If A-tim is X-malinois and if he is such a great dog maybe people should think about making new breed for which it will be only purpose to work.
Best regards, Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
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