Another female who was never titled is Bea du Creux Thatcher. But as a producer she rocked. Some of her progeny include Dusty du clos Savoie Dan du Clos de Savoie Gotha des Bergers Vaillants Elite des Bergers Vaillants A number of years ago Josh Lewis and I compiled a list of the FRIII dogs she has produced, he has that list. At last count it was 26.
Ok, Let me try to again explain **my opinion**. I know that Holland and Germany, are not working their females by the boatloads, but they do work more than Belgium. I also am not knocking Belgium at all as to state they don't have good dogs, I live in America, hell Antartica has better dogs than us (as a whole, I know we have some good breeders here!). Also, the numbers put up about how many dogs titled out of a non working female are great, I'm not saying it doesn't work. However, I think those numbers may even be higher if everyone worked their females and used that as a last measurement for brood selection. I'm looking at it as a whole, not on an individual breeder level like Bart B. whom I admire. There will though, always be the breeder who believes because his female chases a rag, ball or sleeve and is not shy that she is worthy of being bred, which is not always the case, but if she is bred, that breeder may produce inferior pups to what he could have produced if he had trained and tested his female, and then selected the best female based on that. She may produce good dogs, but you have to ask is this the best we can do to better this breed. Bottom line is I'm not saying it doesn't work, but I think it can be better if everyone atleast competed at basic levels with their females before they breed them. Being that everyone who breeds is **SUPPOSE** to be trying to better the breed, and should be doing everything they can to produce litters better and better. So I'm not saying that breeder who don't work their females are poor breeders, but I think they can highly improve by selecting females that are trained and can compete. That is my viewpoint. I use to do *alot* of breeding in a different performance sport arena, and I saw big differences in the amount of champions produced from (2) working parents, than just a working sire and a "BALANCED" female. They did produce well if carefully selected, but the (2) working parents produced much more. I just bought a new pup and I only considered a pup from two working parents, when I breed me a litter for myself in about 2 years, it will only be out of two working parents. The U.S. Military has produced it's own litters of Belgian malinois. And I have seen some first hand, and they are extremely impressive, as a matter of fact the most impressive Malinois I have seen to date, in person, or by way of video has been a female Mal named F-15 and she was only 15months when I first saw her on TV and I had the privilage of seeing her work on Base, I have not seen a Better Mal yet. They work all their females, and also only breed the worker. Their working career is not as long for breeding purposes, but they do work, then breed.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
In Germany they work more with the females in IPO than in Holland. For example the first 3 place from the last years DMC Championship wore all ladies. Iff you want to breed with in the DMC the females have to have minimum IPO 1 , K?rung 1, hd pictures taken(maximum hd-B) and charaktertest. In holland a female doesn't have to have this at all there is no k?rung or you do not have to have IPO 1. There are selldom KNPV females with an PH-certificate. Many breeders here in holland do not work with there females. I know i live in holland. I only know 2 0r 3 breeders that do that (with malinois). But it doesn't have to say anything iff you don't work with an female out off working lines that she doesn't preduce good offspring.
I was familiar with Germany's organization requiring an IPO 1 but do you believe a descent number of people in holland test their females? Not necessarily titled but trained a little bit and tested? I made that comment also because I have seen PH1 females but not BR titled females. I tried to do research on BR females and couldn't find any titled. I would imagine there would be atleast one, but I haven't been successful in my find, and it is easy to do research and find a PH1 female.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
Ok, You see a lot more females working in Germany, but you can't compare the program they are doing there to BR at all. IPO requires a more sporty type of dog and this is also why many females are doing very good in this discipline.
In KNPV there aren't many females competing at all, but it would be possible there, because you don't have to compete almost every weekend to get a championship selection in Holland.
BR dogs aren't as well known abroad as KNPV dogs, because there isn't any marketing involved (probably this is why you think Dutch dogs are better). In KNPV the target is training a dog for police work and sell it when titled, which is completely different from the BR concept.
Most good BR dogs keep competing for years and aren't for sale but their quality sure is known all over the world. I'm glad you admire Bart Bellon (who by the way is a very good friend and training partner), but how much do you think Zodt would have costed as a young promising male? BR dogs that aren't good enough for competition mostly go to police or army and are doing very good there...
Working our females wouldn't change anything to their quality and believe me, I don't need to see a female working to get a clear view of her quality. In fact most (of course there are exceptions) of the working females I already saw wouldn't stand a chance of being selected as my brood bitch.
I guess there is no point of keeping discussing because you clearly have your point of view. I only would wish I could show you the type of dog I'm talking about, because I'm sure this would make you change your opinion
You are correct I have my point of view. Although I have a strong belief in my point of view, People have to be open to change or else this world gets no where. So I am definatly open to the opposite point of view because I am not so much of a close minded person as to rebuke a good opposite point of view. Understand my opinions and points of views will be shaped by my envioroment, IE... the dogs I see in person, and the dogs I read about, and the dogs I see in tape. I would only close myself to another point of view after I have seen every single dog on earth. It is just at this point I feel breeding two working dogs is the best way, Provided she has the natural ability and is sound, which you will find out through training. As you know some dogs can go though the entire IPO in prey drive, So just because she is successful doesn't mean she should be bred in my book, especially if you have to train her in prey because she doesn't possess enough natural civil drive or has too weak of nerves to work in defense.
Let me make it clear I very much admire the entire european dog community, and Belgium ranks among one of the top in my book. I just feel the breeding could be taken to a higher level if the females where selected after training, and possibly competition. I also, train BR here in the states, I have a male that I plan to compete in Belguim in late 2006 or 2007. I will give you the fact that my position also comes because I live in America, and we are so far behind in dog breeding it isn't funny. Maybe this rule I have adopted is more for the American community than any other world community. Since here we tend to breed a bitch blind, cripple and crazy as long as she has a good pedigree, and sometimes that doesn't matter! LOL This last point I will investigate further. It has been a pleasure discussing this with you Workingmalinois. Hopefully we can pick this up again from time to time after I do more research applying your opinion to my perspective and see if I see if I begin to see things your way. All though, I will hold very tight to the fact that this needs to be a requirement to breed dogs in the US!
PS: can you find out how many females in the last 10yrs have titled in BR. I know 10yrs is a long time but I can't imagine it would be that many at all (since they dont' work'em ) I am very curious about this, and my previous attempts have failed.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
Personally I think this discussion is starting to become a "my sport is best" and not about breeding. The reason why BR can't / won't train females I don't see stand as very good argument, nor do I see arguments on why other sports are able to work with females and title them valid. Please, don't make this board start slander on other sport disciplines as usual elsewhere !!
Let's respect each other discipline.
Anyway..I share Chris opinion on testing and selecting females. However I do not believe any titled female is of enough proof of perfect products. Much more is involved in correct breeding.
Beside this, a good example of a femme fatale might be this Laekinois:
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Also now in belgium there is a female alfi who is competing in mondioring and is in first place for the worldchampionship this year.
However I do not believe any titled female is of enough proof of perfect products. Much more is involved in correct breeding.
That was also, a part of my point. Titleing isn't everything, thats why on one of my last post I said as a last measure compete her. Though I wouldn't necessarily say it should be a requirement, if everything else for breeding selection was up to par it would show accomplishment on the part of the female. If you are going to breed a female, and you follow the doctrine of training and testing the female, and if everything is in order like I said, since you are already there, why not put an entry level title on her and retire her just to show her accomplishment, though like I said that wouldn't necessarily need to be a requirement, But to just sit a female up in a kennel, and do little things here and there maybe enough to produce good dogs but if you hand selected bitches through training the dogs might be awesome instead of good dogs. I want my female to prove to me that she has what I think she may have in her. Teus, in your opinion do a fair amount of breeders in Holland test their dogs? What I like about dutch dogs is the consistency.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
I appreciate everyone's incisive analyses of the pros and cons of using a working female for breeding and the clamor to use more deserving femme fatales for work whether for or the ringsports or service. Indeed there is much wisdom coming from experts of opposing opinions and the heart of the matter perhaps is that there is no question that there are spectacular femme fatales out there - both terrific in work and carry the potential throw their genes to full functional expression to their progeny. But i guess martine has subliminally given the readers sage advice by hinting that a terrific working female not be bred-AT LEAST NOT DURING HER WORKING CAREER (perhaps for practical and theortical considerations).
PS. Martine, perhaps Belgian dogs are not known to the world at large in your opinion but in the Philippines, i can site you the names of people (and there are many) who are virtual walking encyclopedias of the Belgian dogs. Regards.
Hello! Interesting discussion. Theoretically if one was to select a female from the Belgian breedings or any of the belgian producing countries, and a potential female was chosen for good character, retrieved naturally and was/is slated for a breeding parent. Let's say that the puppy grew older, some obedience, tugwork was/ is introduced. Female showed all of the characteristics, desire to really work and work well. Let's say she becomes very intense when playing, superb jumper, too much in fact. Now will this translate to a better quality producer? Maybe, maybe not? The initial thought of "friendly, secure female" just got tossed it would seem when this female was "started for work". Let's add another twist to this, if the mother of this female never works but is the so called "cold" femme. Produces super nice dogs. Now would this "super producer" be because of the genetic make-up of the dog? I would think so. I believe it's just a matter of preference and choice whether you get a dog from the best titled female or a dog from a well known bloodline that is consistently producing good dogs. Just my thoughts at the moment. Juan
I like to keep things simple kindof like black and white ... When it comes to this subject matter, I don't see why we always need to try and invent some new ways, infact it is already being tested and shown to be of success.
Take a look at the french,dutch, and belgians they have been breeding malinois longer then any other countrys with much success without the need to work/test the female. There are much more factors that are needed to be consider.
If testing of females would really better the malinois breed, then I ask this... Why are the german shepherds breeds as a whole, not where it should be Take a look at the german shepherds breeding program, to be able to register a litter with the SV, the female must be sch1 and pass beauty test. For how long now this program existed ::)very long time I think. But what happen the shepherds are not getting better or stronger .
because I live in America, and we are so far behind in dog breeding it isn't funny. ?Maybe this rule I have adopted is more for the American community than any other world community. ?Since here we tend to breed a bitch blind, cripple and crazy as long as she has a good pedigree, and sometimes that doesn't matter! LOL ?
I will only speak for the working malinois community, as I being part of it I don't really feel that we are that far behind the french,belgians or dutches when it comes to breeding good dogs. My reasons being, we have all the best genetics that europe has to offer. Americans import dogs by the hundreds every year from the best genetics europe has to offer... So you see my friend, we have what they have same genetics as they have
There are many factors needed to be taken into consideration ::)But really, we are not that far behind when it comes to breeding good dogs;D
We do TEST our females over here, but we don't really work them. Using a female just like that, without any test wouldn't be very clever. But they don't have to know any exercises to pass this test.
To me a good female has to be confident and have a good grip, which can be checked very easily. An adult, mature female should bite the suit even without any training. She has to be confident in unfamiliar situations and she should have a charismatic personality. She should have good hips and a nice body and muscle structure.
If a female has all these qualities, of course she could be a nice working dog.
Putting an "entry title" on her however isn't possible over here, because there simply is no entry level. Entry level is Cat3 and these dogs have to perform the same exercises as in Cat1 (same obedience and jumps, object guard, muzzle guard, stopped attack). This requires at least 2 years of training.
During the last 10 years there were about 10 females competing. I know of 4 females with a championship selection and reaching Cat1. Only one of them has been used as a brood bitch but therefore was taken out of competition. One had a litter as a young bitch, before starting her carreer. The other ones never had a litter.
1 female became Belgian Champion in Cat2 in the eighties (handler R. Goossens).
I do approve of a test similar to the K?rung in Germany, but I wouldn't include the obedience. I'd only do the health and character test. In fact, at the K?rung 2 test in Heinitz Germany in 2003, to me the best performer was a female (+ also a female handler). She passed the test with glamour and showed a very nice personality. She couldn't be scared off. I don't exacly remember the name but I think it was Gina vom Greifenring.
I do agree with you on that, but here is than an other problem. Not many breeders would like to do such a test like the DMC. Why, because many breeders are breeding with females that are than not good enough to breed with them. I like to to have such a test in Holland and make the malinois a bit better. But than the breeders would see that some females and males are not good enough. It is impossible to get such a thing starting. But i like the idea. But the females in IPO are not all sporting types. There are some that I don't like to comfront them in a dark alley. But the sport type female are to me not good enough what I wrote earlier. The breeding female has to have a bit more than a sporting female. But i think there are good females in every sport only you have too look for them. Second I look at the pedigree(sorry) but i doo. For example. i have a french mali. His father is Rodin his bloodlines are half duboscaille and des Deux Pottois. The mother from my dog is for 80% Des Deux pottois. On the fathersside you have the sharpnes and on mothersside the stability. In the BR you have the some kind off bloodlines to i think.
My old dutch bitch works great. But the best puppy I have ever seen is a female of A'tim and an Ulman daughter of xerans Zina. Martine I like what your blood produces. Thank you he will be very seen.
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... When it comes to this subject matter, I don't see why we always need to try and invent some new ways, infact it is already being tested and shown to be of success. 
Take a look at the german shepherds breeding program, to be able to register a litter with the SV, the female must be sch1 and pass beauty test. For how long now this program existed ::)very long time I think. But what happen 
the shepherds are not getting better or stronger 
::)But really, we are not that far behind when it comes to breeding good dogs;D
