This is an apparent offshoot from a very interesting topic in the forum. We have discussed stud qualities but may we hear from those in the forum (especially those with a good grasp of theoretical genetics as well as first hand experience in breeding and training of working dogs) what they look for in a prospective breeding female. It is my understanding (unless i am very wrong)that the prevailing mindset of some working dog communities in parts of Europe is that the only things that a breeding female should possess is a good pedigree and innate environmental adaptability and that seldom are they tested for working potential. I would be very interesting to hear from folks from both sides of the atlantic.
Over here (Belgium), females hardly ever are trained (I'm talking ring).
Females are used for breeding and this can't be combined with ring training (competition level). Besides it isn't allowed to train or to attend a trial with a female in heat. Moreover, during a trial females always have to compete at the end of the day, after all males have finished.
Other reason is that it's easier to find a male capable of doing the program then a female.
To select a good female, we look at good lines, healthy body and a strong personality.
I had a very nicely bred Perle de tourbier female, that had a weak bite, after 7months of working on her bite I had her fixed and gave her to a little kid for a pet. I would not breed a bitch that wouldn't work competitively with the males. I know not testing the females in the work arena is a major practice everywhere, but I personally refuse to sucumb to that. It's not all about the stud, the female brings alot to the breeding, so for the life of me I can't figure out why people choose to overlook working the brood female. Though I have some theories, one being, there are less workable females than males and the easier way out of having to find two working parents is to adopt some lame policy about the brood bitch only needing to do or be like this or that. I would not buy a pup if both parents aren't working dogs, and I sure as hell won't breed a non working female. I also feel it is BS about, "I don't work'em but after one year she showed the traits I was looking for, so I"m going to breed her. I believe because they don't want to work around the heat cycles, and then she has to take time off for the pups, and the fact that they have to work a little harder to find a good working female makes people adopt this policy. Just my Opinion. This topic is one that I believe in strongly so I apologize to readers, if I seem a little fired up, but it does really get to me.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
I think the best females for breeding are so cold "male" females. Females that work like a male and so on. But the female must be secure, taxabil, lots off natural drive, temprament and stable. These females that are "female"female are for me no good. They whine a lot.
The female contributes with half of the puppys genes + all the mitochondria the puppy gets (mitochondria is the organelles in the cell that works and transmittes energy). Above that the puppies are in the female body for two months and what she transmittes to them there I dont know if lots is known about that scientifically. And then the puppies are raised by the female for about 8 weeks.
So above beeing a good mother ger genes really counts aswell!!!
Like was said in the other topic about good pedigrees, if you have a litter with a good pedigree and there might be one or two stars (probably males) and the rest are medium. Probably the female is also a medium and contributes the medium genes to the puppies. Noone would use a medium male for breeding, why using a medium female? They contribute with the same amount of genes, the female probably a little more!
You dont know how the female is to work with if you dont train her. I think it's not necessary to compete with the female, but at least to do basic training to see if she got the requirements you have for good breedingdogs.
It seemes like the BR organisation makes it hard to compete with females, thats sad.
I know females with really nice working titels that also breed. For example in sweden the policedog trials 2004 were won by a malinoisfemale (who's working as a policedog ofcourse) that the same year became a workingdogchampion in swedish defence and qualified for the swedish championships for workingdogs for this year. She's having her third litter now. In IPO and many other disciplines it is not hard to combine trials with breeding, it is mostly a matter of interest. And of course a matter of what you think is most important, quality or quantity.
And last not but least, of course it is not the titels that are important, they are not transmitted to the puppies but if you have trained a female to championship level (or at least to some level) you are probably very aware of her strengths and weaknesses and can decide for breeding thatway, and also decide better for a male that is strong in the females weaknesses.
Scientists say that genetic traits (funtional or structural) thrown to offsprings are skewed in favor of the female parent by as much as 60-70%. I'd like to ask our panel if you have ever seen or known of an exceptional female, worked in either sport or service to have done exactly that- meaning reproduced her functional and structural traits to the great majority of her pups. Assuming of course the paternal character and pedigree are considered "average" or "above average".
I'd like to ask our panel if you have ever seen or known of an exceptional female, worked in either sport or service to have done exactly that- meaning reproduced her functional and structural traits to the great majority of her pups. Assuming of course the paternal character and pedigree are considered "average" or "above average".
I think Djenna (PH1) of Perle de Tourbiere Kennel is an good example. Cajun van de Zandsteenhoeve (PH1, Explosive detection) has done so.
Chris says that he?d never use a non working female?
Well, I don?t agree at all with that at all. To me a female must come out of working LINES but I couldn?t care less whether she is being worked or not.
I know a lot of females over here that would stand the comparison with a good working male with glamour and way outstand many of the working females I see on the trials (which mostly are the submissive, happy, will to please type).
I completely agree with Bjorn, when he states he likes the kinda masculine type of female.
You don?t need to work her at all, to get a clear view of her qualities and personality. Just let her bite a few times, observe her reaction in a strange environment and let her be provoked by a stranger. She doesn?t have to know anything for this but I sure can judge her (grip, confidence, character, charisma) upon these few parameters.
I practice BR because I want to compete and get a championship selection. Not just for fun.
To be selected for the championship, each year you have to send the points of your best trials to the board (6 in Cat3, 8 in Cat2, 10 in Cat1). The 20 teams with the best average are selected for the championship. Taking into consideration that there are a few hundred teams competing in Belgium, the sent results have to be very good to be in the top 20 (so you probably have to participate more then 6, 8 or 10 trials to have only good ones). Can you realize this in a season starting in March and ending in August when your female is out for some time for having a litter? Well I sure can?t, so why would I take a female for sport then? Moreover if she should be in heat in September?. Bye bye championship.
Look at the foundation dogs and the famous top quality working malinois. How many mothers of these dogs were working females? A VERY small percentage (in BR I don?t know any at all). Look at the most famous breeders ever. How many of their brood bitches were or are working females? VERY few! Didn?t they produce well? These bitches didn?t work but this doesn?t mean there was no quality test.
Therefore I want a male for working and a female for breeding. If (you never know of course ) I ever would work a female, I sure wouldn't use her for breeding (at least not during her working career).
Over here (Belgium), females hardly ever are trained (I'm talking ring).
My point exactly, and that is why I and friends of mine would never consider buying a pup from Belgium. I guess we have established the fact that it is opinion, and mine wouldn't allow my money to go there.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
forgot to mention, I feel Holland and Germany works their females way more than Belgium, and out of three great dog countries that is why I feel Holland produces better offspring.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
Personally I work the females I breed, well most of them. I have bred females that I tested, but wasn't training for titles. In those cases though the females were aquired at an older age, and had no foundation work done at all. Could I have put a title on them, probably. But I decided it just wasn't worth my time, when I have other better (read that as they had proper foundation) dogs to work/title. I like to see titles on females used for breeding. But it's not a deal breaker for me when looking for a pup if I can see the female worked, to evaluate her drive, grips, nerves, etc. Some of the best producers have been untitled females. And some of the highest titled females don't produce. So ... I do think it's to bad Belgian Ring doesn't allow females to trial right along side the males. If they are in heat they can always go at the end. But one thing I want to see in my males is their ability to work despite distractions, including females. I'm not interested in a male who won't work because there is a female in heat around. I've seen enough of them to know that I want a male whose highest drives are to work, but the "other" drives are still high enough to get that "job" done.
out of three great dog countries that is why I feel Holland produces better offspring. ?
Don't know how much truth to this statement. However, I am sure each country has its share of both good and bad (or rather not so good) dogs. In fact, if you look closer this is the case with dogs in every countries. I always say, no matter where it comes from. Always be very selective and you will find a good dog, no matter which country.
In IPO or in KNPV there are very less females trained with. Holland is like Belgium and france, the females are there for breeding. The only country where people work with there breeding females is in Germany only in the DMC(Deutche Malinois Club). A other point is that a very good female was Pita mother from Stoned van de Duvetorre and Pigrine mother from Turcodos van de Duvetorre and there are some good females in Germany Quirrinna Airporthannover, Wanda Airport Hannover, Alpha du Sauvage Chauseur and in France there was Apple des Loups Mutins one off the starting breeding females from that kennel.
My point exactly, and that is why I and friends of mine would never consider buying a pup from Belgium.
Several years a friend and I imported a female from Bart Bellon's dog Zot for breeding. This female NEVER bite the suit or sleeve EVER just a very stable pet
However, I was able to produce the 2004 NARA ring3 national champion from this female
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) I ever would work a female, I sure wouldn't use her for breeding (at least not during her working career).
drives are still high enough to get that "job" done.
just a very stable pet 
