I have a 2 1/2 years old son of Utamarou with an IPO 3. He doing fine for his age, but we have this problem that if the helper does not realy have a go at him and put all the presure on him that he can, (ex: svinging him into the air) he starts to shifts his bite. Not outwards og sideways but inwards towards the helper.
How can I work against this, I've had several suggestions put to me, going form putting him back on the soft sleave and giving him "long" bites. To only allowing him very few bites and then only difficult bites.
Hi Aiko, I have a 14 month old Mal, He also will drive in and try to fill his mouth more if the helper freezes. If the helper is driving him or is fleeing the bite does not move. Rocco's bite does not move along the sleeve when he drives in but he goes in straight and will actually crumple the sleeve. We are working him always on the line so I can keep presure to minimize movement. I too would be interested on any thoughts about this. Maybe Teus may have some coments? Randy
Not outwards og sideways but ?inwards towards the helper.
I guess for ringsports this would be a good thing to see from the dog 8)but in ipo you will lose points for movements of the grip
IMO, this is what I would do. Taking into consideration the dogs age and level. I would want to teach the dog to pull backward after the grip, and not forward. To accomplish this task, the dog must be able to handle some pressure from the helper.
This exercise should be work on a post...
1. dog is tie to post with six feet leash 2. helper give dog a bite 3. grip should be full, if not, let dog make adjustment 4. at the moment the dog grips full, the helper should put pressure to the dogs leg/foot, also both feet should be of the ground while pressure is being apply 5. as soon as the dog pulls back, any movements backward, at this point, the sleeve needs to be rewarded
I have use this way with many dogs that are like what you say or others that are just lazy on the grip. But like everything in teaching, timing the reward is everything when teaching.
My bitch does work like that too, she wants to correct bite deeper and deeper. I did train it a bit differently myself (using sleeve myself). I did take her to bite without leash and standed still, and right after she corrected once, I did lift sleeve fast as hi as I could, so that elbow part of sleeve points to sky. So dog has quite an unpleasent position to hang and after a while I set sleeve to normal position in front and give her a reward.
Later I did give reward after dog did fight some (needed to give some preasure to do that) and when she did, I rewarded her for that. Later I did make time longer and demanded calm bite for very long times with a passive decoy. After 6 months of training this way (allmost daily) it resulted that when helper is passive, she did bite calm and fight, so I was happy with the result.
Now I can easily wait couple of seconds after decoy stops before command out, without scaring that she maid correct grip. Here is a video clip of one competition I did after this training perion, not a single correction in bites there with passive decoy (Never mind the music, it was only melody, I had in my new computer that time...)
In my opinion changeing grip to deeper is a good characteristic, especially for policedogs etc. dogs that need to bite for real. But rules are what they are and we have to live / train by that. If I could change Ipo rules, I would put value on dogs expression and attitude, more than to cosmetics like one grip change / bite etc.
Frank, one question? Do you mean front legs off the ground and pressure on back legs?
"4. at the moment the dog grips full, the helper should put pressure to the dogs leg/foot, also both feet should be of the ground while pressure is being apply "
Jan! Nice working on the video! You certainly do not have that problem anymore. I can only agree with you on your oppinion on IPO rules, judges only see the change off grib and iterpretate as weeknes, wich it is not! In this case anyway I have a couple of questions to your comments:
"Later I did give reward after dog did fight some (needed to give some preasure to do that) and when she did, I rewarded her for that. Later I did make time longer and demanded calm bite for very long times with a passive decoy."
What kind of presure? how? How do you damand calm bite?
Frank, one question? Do you mean front legs off the ground and pressure on back legs?
Front legs (paws)... most dogs does not like to be touch or get their feet/paws hit, so doing this along with maybe handler give verbal support or even at first pull on the leash when the dog bite to show the dog to pull backward inorder to win sleeve... It is really easy to teach most malinois to pull back because they either like to fight or get defensive. either drive will work
What kind of presure? how? How do you damand calm bite?
I just dig a little aggression out of her, by stearing to dogs eyes, yelling and hitting to paws with a wooden stick or just little kicking her chest and after she fights back I reward with a sleeve. That may sound rude, but it isnt when dog has a good stabil character and likes to fight. Dont have to be violent, just to help dog to get in a bit more aggressive mood. This works better if you have good decoy to do this with, I have done it mainly myself with my dog, since i didnt have decoy to work with at that time.
I did demand calm bite as I tryed to explain before, "I did take her to bite without leash and standed still, and right after she corrected once her grip, I did lift sleeve fast as hi as I could, so that elbow part of sleeve points to sky. So dog has quite an unpleasent position to hang and after a while I set sleeve to normal position in front and give her a reward." = always after dog tryes to correct / change a grip, I did lift sleeve very fast hi, so that elbow points to sky and wrist points to ground. Better to use as hard sleeve as possible and maybe a sleeve cover that is slippery (skin or nylon) so that dog must bite real hard and calm to keep a grip. To train like this, dog should have much will for a full grip. Basic point is, that I try to learn my dog that if you correct, you loose grip to worse, and she really dont want that at all
This is a bit hard to explain with my poor english talents, would be easier to show it in "live". This is easier to do with not so big dogs, since over 40 kgs is a bit harder to lift up very fast, than 28 kgs
Are the dogs in question getting a full initial grip, or are they only getting 75-90% on the initial hit and then regripping in fuller? And once they are 100% full, are they still moving around or do they settle at that point? Granted I don't have the Sch experience some of the people on the forum do, but I haven't seen a judge penalize for a dog driving in fuller. Actually when I trialed my female the judge specifically commented on one of her bites that her initial hit wasn't 100% full due to the angle of the sleeve, but as soon as she had a chance she drove in to make it 100% and he felt that was a good thing. I've seen judges make the same comment about other dogs during a trial. Sometimes good, as in "the dog fixed the grip at the first opportunity making it 100% full" or bad "the dog had the chance to fix it's grip and didn't do it".
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I have a couple of questions to your comments:
