Further to the topic of ?qualities of a stud dog?, IMO it also is very important to know what you will be using the pups for, when choosing a stud. Every sport requires its specific type of dog. However my opinion is that a good dog will shine in no matter what he?s doing, he may be perfect in one discipline but certainly not in all disciplines.
KNPV goal is breeding good service dogs for police work and they are doing very well. Their dogs have to be brave, confident and able to take pressure from a stranger. Factors that also have to be there, but IMO are less important, are athleticism (jumps are easier as in ring) and extreme stress endurance from the handler (since there always is a break between the exercises, the handler always has time to take control again). These dogs are perfect service and personal protection dogs.
In IPO the flashy obedience is very important. Jumps are easy and bite work relatively demands few capacity to take pressure from a stranger, since exercises always are the same and can be conditioned with good training. Since the focus is on a flashy performance, they need a dog with high drive and focus on the handler. Big will to please. Certainly no handler aggression. IMO this is very difficult to achieve with a very dominant male and I suppose this is also why females and more sporty males are excelling in this discipline. Nothing wrong with that of course, but to use these sporty types as studs makes the breed weaker with every generation and this will become (or already is?) a problem.
Maybe it is because I practice Ring myself, but IMO this discipline requires an all round dog. Of course there are many sporty dogs in this discipline too, but I?m talking about the real core type ring dog. He has to be like the KNPV dog but in addition the athleticism and the ability to take a lot of pressure from the handler have to be there. In order to keep complete control of a dog, exercise after exercise, without the chance of correcting him, you have to go very deep while training. Not many dogs are able to survive this and this is why I attach a lot of importance to this quality when choosing a bloodline. The drive, the courage, the speed and the will to work have to remain there, even under extreme stress.
I'll agree with a lot of what you said Brigita, with a few additions.
IPO - you also have to have grips to do well in IPO. A big emphasis is put on full and calm. And you need a dog who can handle TONS of reps in training and almost robotic control due to the technical aspect of the sport, but do it with style. There has always been an emphasis in IPO on balance of drives to, although I've seen plenty of prey dogs doing very well. The rules in IPO are changing, to put more emphasis back on the dogs attitude in the guarding & bark/hold, cookie barking won't get you full points anymore according to the judges I've talked to.
Ring - my sport of choice also, but they don't break things down like IPO does as far as the drives go. As long as the dog is getting the job done, an FR judge doesn't care what drive he's in. IMO Ring has a tendency to produce dogs with good nerves and courage, but they are tipped more to the prey drive side of the scale. There is also no emphasis put on grips, so unless the breeders are adding that as a focus you will see lines of Ring dogs who bite really hard, and can take all the pressure the decoy can throw at them, but the don't bite 100% full, even when given the chance to do so. I think French Ring decoys also test the dog more than the other sports when it comes to the decoy/dog "dance". In Belgian Ring and Mondio Ring the test comes from the environmental factors more than the decoy himself.
Yes, you are right. The quality of the trainer is very important to get good results. A good trainer will be able to achieve good results with any good dog. And, as I already said, a good dog will always shine, no matter what discipline (in combination with a good trainer of course) But there is a difference between good results and top results.
To give an example: I once bought a very promising KNPV origin male. The dog had perfect grips, a lot of speed, a lot of courage. In fact I can?t say anything wrong about this dog?s qualities. He was the ultimate personal protection dog. He would have done excellent in KNPV.
But I trained him for Ring and where he failed was the constant stress factor. He knew all exercises and was ready for competition level but the finishing touch for top level still had to be done. This meant: ?out immediately at my whistle and not after 1 or 2 seconds, because this cost me 1 or 2 points?. ?Stopped attack within less then 4m distance from the decoy, because every meter cost me 1 point? ?Perfect and constant control for half an hour during a trial, without me being able to correct him in between the exercises?
To reach this, I had to increase the pressure to a level that he couldn?t take anymore. When I asked this from him, the happy attitude was gone and he didn?t like to work anymore. When I gave him a little more freedom, he was ok but then I always lost these couple of points (too much to be able to win).
Was this a bad dog? NO, CERTAINLY NOT! He just wasn?t the ultimate ring type. Were we bad trainers? I don?t think so either. After more then 25 years of dog training, numerous championship participations and 2 titled champions, I think we have at least some experience.
I gave the dog to a friend of ours, an army officer who just had lost his service dog. The dog is doing a wonderful job there and the man couldn?t be happier. He is by far the best dog in his unit.
That?s what I meant by ?a dog can be perfect in a certain discipline but not in all disciplines?.
Malndobe you're talking about FR in BR (NVBK? if the grip isn't there you can't win
Correct, I was talking about FR in my post. Except for the last sentence where I said MR and BR have environmental stressors. Sorry that wasn't clear. I know in BR the dog must have awesome grips to do well.
Bite is bite and all discipline is as difficult: trainers are the low factor !
I don't think anyone is saying that one sport is harder than another, just that to get to the top in each sport, the dog is required to have a different set of attributes. If my dog can't track his way out of a paper bag, and I do French Ring, it really doesn't matter from a competition standpoint. But if Schutzhund is my goal, that's a serious problem. I've seen dogs that are super solid environmentally, the Mondio Ring accessories and obstacles are not a problem for these dogs. But they will blow off under FRI stick work. And I've seen dogs who can take an FRIII barrage get completely weirded out by a Mondio Ring attack because of the strange footing and accessories. I saw an FRIII dog compete and do well in a trial, a month or two later a friend saw that same dog come off the bite in a SchI trial and almost get chased. Different presentation of the threat, different type of bite, and the dog reacted very differently. A good dog is a good dog and can do well in any sport. But each sport demands certain traits from the dogs, and if your dog is missing one of those traits, it might not be suitable for that sport, but do very well in another sport. I find a discussion of what traits each sport requires useful, because it helps keep an idea of the balance required in the dogs to be good at everything. And it reminds people that just because their sport of choice doesn't test for something, doesn't mean they shouldn't test those traits outside of the sport field.
In IPO only the dogs that walk the points are for me not the type that are for me qualified as studdogs. For example the people in holland look only at the points and they that is a good dog. And i think why because he made "beautifull"points. But they don't take dogs that are making "bad"points. I mean by that when dogs loose points due too to much drive and so on. It is populair to go to a studdog that make beautifull points in everykind off discipline than a dog with lots off drive. And there are plenty off examples. But people don't know how these dogs where as a young dog. In short said a dog that make "beautifull"points the pups are sold better. But this kind off breeding with so called "points" dogs make our breed wourse instad off breeding with high drive and stable studdogs. Dogs that are difficult to controle. I don't care iff you have a good IPO dog or a ring dog. Iff the dog is good I will use him.
In IPO only the dogs that walk the points are for me not the type that are for me qualified as studdogs. For example the people in holland look only at the points and they say that is a good dog. And i think why because he made "beautifull"points. But they don't take dogs that are making "bad"points. I mean by that when dogs loose points due too to much drive and so on. It is populair to go to a studdog that make beautifull points in everykind off discipline than a dog with lots off drive. And there are plenty off examples. But people don't know how these dogs where as a young dog. In short said a dog that make "beautifull"points the pups are sold better. But this kind off breeding with so called "points" dogs make our breed wourse instad off breeding with high drive and stable studdogs. Dogs that are difficult to controle. I don't care iff you have a good IPO dog or a ring dog. Iff the dog is good I will use him.
>>I'll agree with a lot of what you said Brigita, with a few additions.
Sorry, just wanted to clarify that 'workingmalinois' is not me. :-/ Thanks!
Brigita
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"Desire is the key to motivation, but it's the determination and commitment to an unrelenting pursuit of your goal - a commitment to excellence - that will enable you to attain the success you seek."
I saw an FRIII dog compete and do well in a trial, a month or two later a friend saw that same dog come off the bite in a SchI trial and almost get chased.
I'm sorry but being as hard as that is to believe I, as I'm sure others would need the name of the dog in question and the trial to verifiey this one.
PS: I'm not saying your lying, as this was a story you yourself were told about, just want you to know I am not questioning your integrity.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
I'm not saying it's entirely impossible, (though I feel nearly impossible) because there isn't any kind of pressure that I could see a IPO helper putting on the dog that the dog hasn't seen and faced before and if the dog is FRIII then he the dog must have sustained himself. I understand the exercises are different, but pressure is pressure and stress is stress. So once again not saying it's impossible but to say it happened I would definatly want to see proof for me to buy it.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
Malndobe wrote: ?I'm sorry but being as hard as that is to believe I, as I'm sure others would need the name of the dog in question and the trial to verifiey this one. ?
I will not publically name this dog, as I don't see any point. Although not "super dog", he is not a bad dog. However if you want to find out who it is, you can compare the trial results for Ring from the last couple of years with the Sch trial results. There aren't to many dogs crossing over. Without having been at the Sch trial, I don't see how you would be able to verify what happened anyway. My friend who was there, said that during the drive on the first stick hit the dog "screamed" (that weird bark/growl/whine noise dogs will make when stressed out on the bite) and on the second hit he came completely off the sleeve, then re-engaged. She felt if there had been just a few more steps in the drive, or one more hit, he would have come off and stayed off. As a side note, my friend is a long time Sch competitior, who has competed nationally and internationally, she isn't some total newbie to Sch or protection sports. They have competed now in Sch I believe 3 times, and haven't passed the SchI yet, although his protection scores have improved. FR is my sport of choice, and so I am biased towards it and the dogs it produces. But just because a dog has an FRIII doesn't automatically make it a great dog. I doubt this is the case with the dog in question, but I've seen FR dogs who will not take an arm bite to save their life. They will do everything in their power to avoid it. I'm sure with some training the dog could be taught to take the arm. But if that owner later decided to do Sch with that dog, I could easily see the dog having some serious issues with the protection portion.
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