I have to agree with Martine on line-breeding and, in some cases, in-breeding. This is an important factor because some combinations work well together and by line-breeding on them, we make the possibility of good offspring stronger. That does not, by any means, guarantee 100% super pups, but it helps to 'lock in' certain genetic qualities. Also, to bring up an interesting point: Let's say you are choosing between two Studs....Stud A and Stud B. Stud A wins everything, he's a phenominal dog, fast, hard and full bite etc ....he blows you away. Stud B is a very nice dog, also has great qualities, but not as pronounced as Stud A. Based on that alone...who do you choose? Can you choose? Well the dog that blows you away is what most people say. A good dog is a good dog right? This is why line-breeding is important: what we didn't know is that Stud A is from a complete outcross, meaning that it is less likely that he will produce himself or close to it, but accidents happen. Stud B is tightly line-bred, and his pups are consistantly showing great qualities. Because of this, you sometimes see with tightly line-bred combos that these dogs, although not spectacular, certainly produce. Other times, you could have the most bad ass dog known to mankind and he rarely produces anything worthwhile. Genetics are funny.
Logged
~Stephanie O'Brien Fat Louie Des Barriques FR III 2007 NARA Overall Domestic Champion
workingmalinois states" I would also like to point out the fact that several young malinois in my close entourage have been diagnosed with HD (sometimes severe), all of which come from well-known working bloodlines. "
Are these young malinois in the Hoboken club? Which combinations produced these problems with HD? I'm sure it's a delicate subject to discuss but to be responsible for the malinois, we must discuss this issue and see how we can prevent further problems. Private email is respected if not comfortable with post. Juan
" Maybe outline breeding could help prevent this?"
Outline breeding would only bury the problem a few generations will it not, then eventually show up again?
It wasn't me who made the statement about the HD. It was in Andryana's post. I just commented it by saying that I'd like a hips certificate obligatory to be allowed to breed a dog.
To me a good bone and body structure surely is as important as strong character. All my dogs are x-rayed and have perfect hips.
Unfortunately not all breeders and trainers are the same opinion, so an official certificate is the only way to solve this.
That is the way it goes here in north / Finland. If you want to breed pups with malinois here, parents must have an official HD hip cert A or B and an official, not more than 2 years old eye examination (dogs with HC and PRA are forbidden to use for breeding). This year will also official elbow x-rays be part of the health program of belgian shepherds.
In Finland 95% of working malinois population are free from hip dysplasia = hips are A or B and only one or two cases with so bad hips that they effect for woking. This % calculations include about 200 examined working working line malinois from last years.
Bigger problem with malinois is back, spondylos etc. These failures are often blamed on hard atacks etc. but there is numerous dogs that hit very hard and are still healthy as older age. Naturaly it has some influense (trauma), but we have found changes in malinois's back also in very early age 1 years and so. So this is a matter that breeders shoud put more concern on and x-ray breeding animals backs also.
Also here in Sweden breedingdogs have to have X-rayed hips with A or B. 90-95 % of malinois (show- + working lines together) born 99-01 and X-rayed in sweden have A or B hips. Also healthy elbows are required and the number of dogs with healthy elbows are even more than healthy hips. A mentalitydescription (MH) is also required of breedingdogs to be able to register the puppies in the kennel club.
Most breeders want their puppybuyers to x-ray the dogs hips and to make a MH with the dog so the breeder can evaluate the breeding better. So it is very common at least for workingdogbreeds that people X-ray and mantalitytest their dogs even if they are not going to breed on the dog.
Also in sweden there has been some cases of spondylos and many breeders x-ray the dogs back aswell. It is not that common yet to x-ray back, but will probably become more common as puppybuyers get more aware of the problems with spondyloses and want to know puppys parents are healthy.
Bigger problem with malinois is back, spondylos etc. These failures are often blamed on hard atacks etc. but there is numerous dogs that hit very hard and are still healthy as older age. Naturaly it has some influense (trauma), but we have found changes in malinois's back also in very early age 1 years and so. So this is a matter that breeders shoud put more concern on and x-ray breeding animals backs also.
Hello Jan,
Just curious about the spondyloses in the malinois in Finland, do you know where it's coming from?
I know that a hard hitting dog can get spondyloses but that will show up when the dog is much older and most of the times after the dog is retired from work but than the spondyloses is caused by trauma because the neck and spinalcord have to absorb the forces that are involved in those hard hits and I know that a dog can get spondyloses when it has a bad structure, for example to long in the back or when the croupe of the dog is higher than his/her shoulder and in a few cases it might be a genetic thing but that's maybe only for the very young dogs that are diagnosed with it or maybe older dogs that have spondyloses so bad at a certain age that there's not other way to think than that they had it all their live.
we are gathering database of all back problem cases that have existed in Finland ( from which we have permission of owner or breeder and we have vet's diagnose of x-rays ). We also collect info of other inheritable illneses, like hip-, shoulder-, elbow- dysplasy, eye deceases, epilepsy, etc.
I will not point to any certain stud dog, I think no one can. but I can say that most present main lines of malinois has this problem. Finnish malinois lines are mainly from Belgium. So far here has been only couple of cases that were so bad that dog has been paralized, but many that show up in x-rays, but dont ( yet ) give any symptomses.
Trying to gather all the information that is available is a good thing but than you have to be sure that the illness the dog has is genetic. For example HD is not 100% genetic, it has also to do with what kind of food the dog was given as a pup and maybe the pup had an accident so you never know for sure if it's genetic unless the whole bloodline of that dog has HD C or worse and the same is with epilepsy, there are only a few epilepsies that are gentic transfered to offspring but the most of them are just unknown or because of something is wrong in the brain, like cancer or bonedeformation on the inside of the skull.
I have to admit that I never heard of dogs being paralized because of spondylosis cause spondylosis is the fusion of the bones and it hurts the dog until everything is fused and than the pain is gone. For me if a dog shows paralyzing it means that the dog has a hernia or there is something wrong inside the backbone, cancer can be something that makes this happening or bone deformation that grows inside the nerv channel of the backbone but than it's not called spondylosis because these are just little spikes inside the backbone and it won't make the bones fuse.
When the vet makes an x-ray than most of the times you can always see some deformation in the bones and than they might call it spondylosis but this could also happen because the dog, as a pup, had a small accident like running through the house, falls and slide hard into the wall with his back.
Like I said gathering all this info is a good thing to do but when making statistics about this you have to be sure that all the diseases are gentic and not because of other things, otherwise you will get a complete wrong perseption of what is going on in certain bloodlines.
I wish you all the best in collecting all this info and I hope something will come out of it.
Trying to gather all the information that is available is a good thing but than you have to be sure that the illness the dog has is genetic.
This sentence to me is very incorrect. And a shocking post to read.
Personally I do like if people are searching for ways to improve the quality of BSD by gathering information -and hopefully also will share with wider public, breeders and other interested to know. The so called Open Source.- Gathering information and be as objective as possible is very important. It does turn out breeders and BSD lovers does make it themselves a science.
But to say people first (?) have to be sure the illness is genetic.
Aren't we all looking for healthy dogs; as healthy as possible ? Any illness is an defect by itself. And nature has created a system where genotype and phenotype are related..always are.
Quote
For example HD is not 100% genetic
the same is with epilepsy
I hope you truly does believe this. I have no words left over for these statements.
Quote
cancer can be something that makes this happening or bone deformation that grows inside the nerv channel of the backbone but than it's not called spondylosis because these are just little spikes inside the backbone and it won't make the bones fuse.
So far I know cancer is genetic !
And bone deformations (which HD is) are genetic !
Quote
otherwise you will get a complete wrong perseption of what is going on in certain bloodlines.
That's for sure.... let's hope scientificial study will tell who turns out having the wrong perception on genetic diseases.
----------------------------------
Quote
we are gathering database of all back problem cases that have existed in Finland ( from which we have permission of owner or breeder and we have vet's diagnose of x-rays ). We also collect info of other inheritable illneses, like hip-, shoulder-, elbow- dysplasy, eye deceases, epilepsy, etc.
This is excellent. And I think we have to read this well:
Quote
all back problem cases that have existed in Finland
**people doing study and gather databases always have my blessings !**
Trying to gather all the information that is available is a good thing but than you have to be sure that the illness the dog has is genetic.
This sentence to me is very incorrect. And a shocking post to read.
What is so shocking about this Everything that is written down about genetic illnesses has to be based on facts nothing more nothing less. I read a few things on the forum that I could consider shocking but then who am I to judge something or someone to say that I think it's shocking. I want everything based on facts and not what people think
Quote
Personally I do like if people are searching for ways to improve the quality of BSD by gathering information -and hopefully also will share with wider public, breeders and other interested to know. The so called Open Source.- Gathering information and be as objective as possible is very important. It does turn out breeders and BSD lovers does make it themselves a science.
But to say people first (?) have to be sure the illness is genetic.
Aren't we all looking for healthy dogs; as healthy as possible ? Any illness is an defect by itself. And nature has created a system where genotype and phenotype are related..always are.
Yup I like it too if people do research on illnesses in dogs especially the BSD and that's why I wrote this "I wish you all the best in collecting all this info and I hope something will come out of it." . Well that open source is something you invented I think but for me it not neccesary plus that it can bring the owner of the database in trouble because of privacy laws if not everything that is written down is done with the consent of the owner of the dog in question even putting a kennelname there can bring the owner of the database in trouble, if I want to know something I will contact the person myself and ask and than he/she can answer it or not, that I leave up to them to decide and if they don't answer than it's up to me to find it out
Yes everybody wants healthy dogs so I agree with that 100%. Well if any illness is a defect by it self than we can rule out the whole dog population cause kennel cough is an illness too and when a dog gets sick because of a wound infection than we can rule that dog out too cause than he's sick. Yes if you want to make a database about genetic diseases than you have to make sure that the dog , you say has a genetic disorder, has it because of his genetics and not because of an accident or other trauma.
Quote
For example HD is not 100% genetic
the same is with epilepsy
I hope you truly does believe this. I have no words left over for these statements
First about the HD yes I believe that and if it would be 100% genetic than 2 HD C dogs would only produce dogs with HD but the fact is that 2 HD C dogs can produce HD B or even HD A dogs. The only question is would I use a HD A dog out of HD C parents for breeding and that question is very easy to answer for me, this dog is a big no no for breeding because this dog can pass on the bad genes that are responsible for HD.
Now the epilepsy. It seems you forgot something to quote This is what I said about epilepsy : there are only a few epilepsies that are gentic transfered to offspring but the most of them are just unknown or because of something is wrong in the brain, like cancer or bonedeformation on the inside of the skull. . Even the scientist are not sure if epilepsy is geneticly passed on to offspring of dogs that have epilepsy, they just based their opinion on certain breeds that seem to pass it on from 1 generation to an other. An other fact is that epilepsy can be caused by trauma to the head which had an impact on the brains of the dogs such as a tumor or a skullfracture or a pup that stayed to long in the birthcanal and was deprived of air can have epilepsy, so you are saying that these dogs have epilepsy geneticely? My answer is NO cause this is caused by trauma to the brains and thus you can still use these dogs for breeding if you know for sure that it is because of the traume BUT who knows that for sure not even a vet knows it for sure so you won't use it for breeding . There are just to many variables to say for sure that all the epilepsy in dogs is genetic. An other thing is that when a dog gets epileptic between 1 and 3 years of age than it's almost certain that it is a genetic one, in this many scientists agree but there's still that few % that they do not know for sure.
Here's a scientific study of : Barbara Licht, Ph.D., Mark Licht, Ph.D., Kathy Harper, D.V.M, Ph.D., and Shili Lin, Ph.D. This article was written by the Poodle Epilepsy Project at Florida State University. This Project is supported jointly by the Poodle Club of America Foundation Inc. and the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation. This project also has received donations from The Dalmatian Club of America Foundation, The Ralston Purina Company, Panhandle Pet Supply, and private individuals. The contents of this article are solely the responsibility of the authors and do not necessarily represent the views of the financial sponsors.
cancer can be something that makes this happening or bone deformation that grows inside the nerv channel of the backbone but than it's not called spondylosis because these are just little spikes inside the backbone and it won't make the bones fuse.
So far I know cancer is genetic !
And bone deformations (which HD is) are genetic !
Only certain kinds of cancers are genetic and in humans one gentic cancer is breast cancer, they've found a marker for that and scientist have proved that 85% of the humans that have that specific marker will get breast cancer. Lots of cancer in humans have to do with the enviroment they lived or live in. People can get cancer because of the sun or the people that worked in those asbestes factory's in the 1950's, many of them have cancer or died of cancer and you never know for sure if it's genetic or not. Lung cancer is not genetic or at least they can't prove it because there are to much things in the enviroment we live in that can cause lung cancer. In dogs not much about cancer is known or if some of them are genetic or not.
When a dog breaks a leg there's some bonedeformation but that isn't there because it's genetic but because the bone was broken and healed again so to say that bonedeformations are genetic is a very blunt statement . HD doesn't start with bonedeformation in the joint it starts when the cartilage and the fluids in there are not renewed and everytime the ball moves in the socket it will take away a small piece of the cartilage and after a while the ball will hit the bone and than the pain starts for the dog cause now everytime the dog moves or runs or jumps the ball will hit the socket pretty hard and there's nothing to absorb those forces and eventually pieces of bone will break of or the socket wears down completely because of this.
Quote
otherwise you will get a complete wrong perseption of what is going on in certain bloodlines.
That's for sure.... let's hope scientificial study will tell who turns out having the wrong perception on genetic diseases.
Yup I hope that too but first the scientist themselves have to find out exactly what's going on before they can give the right answers. Genes are strange things and won't do the things we say them to do so for now it's up to us to make the right decisions based on what scientists know right now.
Quote
**people doing study and gather databases always have my blessings !**
yup they have my blessings too and if I have questions I will go to them and ask them
I lifted below quote of your post because it's exactly that what does illustrate.
Quote
Yes everybody wants healthy dogs so I agree with that 100%. Well if any illness is a defect by it self than we can rule out the whole dog population cause kennel cough is an illness too and when a dog gets sick because of a wound infection than we can rule that dog out too cause than he's sick.
It's a lovely 'dead end argument' for even you are aware this makes no sense. However this is a chicken / egg problem and also known as the question of the phenomenolgy: does a falling tree in a forest make any sound IF there's no other existence around who could hear it ?
Quote
Lenin rightly sees that the existing world is an object alien to us; it is not who we are, it is an object outside ourselves. And because it is an object outside ourselves, we understand that world to be "non-actual." In recognizing this, we get both a view of what we are against and a glimpse of what the world could be for us. This provides a glimpse of the cognition which "not only reflects the world" that we oppose, but also "creates it." copied from:http://www.newsandletters.org/Issues/1998/May/5-98essa.htm
The Phenomenolgy of Immediacy (an example is my posted picture of the transparent laptop) is an good example of this question:
Quote
Phenomenology seeks to unveil the fundamental structures of experience, by shedding all the assumptions one has about objective reality. Perhaps the most basic of these assumptions is our own spatially derived presence, whereby our surroundings provide the context for our own presence. copied from:http://www.the-door.info/essay.htm
What I want to say is this: by simply avoiding problems with lawyers plus asking strong proof of any evidence if an genetic disease you do know very well any research done and database gathared by breeders is of no value for no official science involved, which you seems to ask for. It does feel/read like a menace to me; a warning. At the other hand you still wants that information or start your own research. And so the re-invention of the wheel starts over and over but this way refurnished so the data does fit someones bloodline.
---I didn't invent the open source idea: it does exist for decenia. Many people gave up after threats and others picked up the loose end.---
Teus
I think it's wise not to discuss with you if any illness is genetic or not. Some statements are mindblowing for me. So I avoid that part.
You or I cant tell exactly how much inheritancy which health problem has. But if we gather all the information we can get for a long time, from big amount of dogs ( not just rumours, but vets exact diagnoses and reports directly from breeder or owners ). We could come to conclusions that some line / litter / stud dogs decendants etc. has much more of some illnes than others. We can also see which illneses go from generation to second, which can be proof of some certain problems inheritancy. And then we have more tools for breeding healthy dogs in future.
For example if we know that we have a very good top quality female, and we know that her family ( not female herself ) has some certain health problem ( all dogs have inheritable illeneses more or less ), we can lesser those bad genes in future by makeing outcross to line that we know is free from the same problem.
You know that Inbreeding cant continue for ever, it is a good tool, but bad master. Because strongest inbreeding allways doubles also bad genes, and as I told _not a single dog_ is totally free from inhetiable deceases. Marks of inbreeding depression are small litters, smaller dogs, serious lethal illneses in early age etc. Naturaly line- and inbreeding are needed, when building a line, but that should be done with a lot of thinking.
Most dog races are still very young, only about n100 years old, when we compare it to dogs whole history, and even then we allready can see what has happened for many many breeds health, mainly because of bad inbreeding.
I belive, that working malinois is what it is now because there are many different lines in world and other registers like nvbk, kcb etc. which lines has often been mixed to more common fci- lines. Because some outcross gives more power for tired blood lines whose gene pool has gone too thin.
It's a lovely 'dead end argument' for even you are aware this makes no sense. However this is a chicken / egg problem and also known as the question of the phenomenolgy: does a falling tree in a forest make any sound IF there's no other existence around who could hear it ?
Sure I know what I said doesn't make any sense regarding the genetic illnesses in dogs but your statement that any illness is a defect doesn't make sense either when talking about genetic defects in a dog Well there is no chicken/ egg problem for me cause the egg was there before the chicken cause dinosaurs were already laying eggs and from certain species of dinosaurs birds evolved and so and so on but the question should be what kind of animal was the first animal who started laying eggs and why and yes a falling tree in forrest still makes a sound even when there's no existence around it who can hear it
Quote
What I want to say is this: by simply avoiding problems with lawyers plus asking strong proof of any evidence if an genetic disease you do know very well any research done and database gathared by breeders is of no value for no official science involved, which you seems to ask for. It does feel/read like a menace to me; a warning. At the other hand you still wants that information or start your own research. And so the re-invention of the wheel starts over and over but this way refurnished so the data does fit someones bloodline.
Warning for whom I just say that everyone who wants to gather data for a database about genetic disorders in dogs have to make sure that every angle is covered and a kennelowner can give his data about his dogs and litters to the database owner BUT the litters he had are sold and are now owned by other people and you need their consent too when publishing it. When people have questions about my dogs or want something for their database and it doesn't matter what kind of database than they will get all the answers if I have those answers cause as soon as I hear that there might be any genetic disorders in the litter I had I will take the dogs out of the breeding program. So far I didn't have to do that cause all dogs are healthy that were produced by my male and the oldest ones are now 3 years old and still show no signs of genetic disorders and that's why I'm not reluctant to give a 3 year full health guarantee on the pups I sold even with the first litter I did that even though I wasn't 100% sure that all the dogs would be free of genetic disorders and if puppy owners come to me when the dog is lets say 5 years old and say that the dog has a genetic disorder I will compensate them after there has been a second opinion of an other vet by my choice and it's not my own vet, for the dogs that went abroad I want a statement of their vet that the dog has been neutered/spayed and than I will compensate them.
Little correction I don't want the data from the database owner I'll ask for the data and I leave it up to them if they want to share it not cause there could be several reasons for it that they don't or can't give it to me and one of them is privacy cause an owner of a dog can give the data but also say you can use it for your research but you're not allowed to give the data to others or publish it and that is something I have to respect and yes than I have to reinvent the wheel again and start my own research and yes the outcome will be that it will fit someones bloodline but hey that's the purpose of trying to find out if something is going on in certain bloodlines before you use it for breeding.
Quote
I think it's wise not to discuss with you if any illness is genetic or not. Some statements are mindblowing for me. So I avoid that part.
So why is it not wise to discuss with me if an illness is genetic or not The only thing I do is stating facts that scientist found. When I was a kid some things were mindblowing for me too but than I learned that asking questions and doing research on stuff that is/was mindblowing for me takes away the blowing part in the mind and than suddenly became very clear and that means to have an open mind to everything people say and do research and ask questions and trying not to get stuck in my own thoughts
I just have to make a comment on HD. If the mum and dad of a litter has for example B and C hips, or even C and D hips, still it is genetics that make that some puppies can get A and B hips, but there is a higher probability that most puppies get bad hips. This is because in the genes of the mum and dad there are also genes that code for healthy hips because maybe their parens or grandparents hade healthy hips. Some puppies are fortunate to get the chromoseome from both parents which codes for the healthy hips.
The other way around, if you have two parents with A (or B) hips, they still can get puppies with bad hips, because maybe the parents still carry genes for bad hips, even if they dont express them themselves.
In sweden this is very easy to follow because you can check every registered dog at the kennel club page. And mostly you have x-rays from the whole litter. You can easily see that if all of the puppie's mums and das littermates have healhy hips (genetical probabilities it is a high probability the parents dont carry gene for bad hips) mostly all puppies from this mum and dad get healhy hips.
As warga was running around as a puppy, jumping and hitting herself and we took longer walks than recommended (so the hips wont be bad...) I was sure she would have bad hips... but she has A and healthy elbows, like all the x-rayed littermates of her (maby four of them are x-rayed). All littermates to wargas mum and dad have A or B hips and healthy elbows. I dont buy anymore that environment has influence in HD. (ok maby if the puppy had a severe accident)
Author
Logged
but for me it not neccesary plus that it can bring the owner of the database in trouble because of privacy laws if not everything that is written down is done with the consent of the owner of the dog in question even putting a kennelname there can bring the owner of the database in trouble, if I want to know something I will contact the person myself and ask and than he/she can answer it or not, that I leave up to them to decide and if they don't answer than it's up to me to find it out 
