1)The dog has to have personality. It should have a lot of wow-effect for me. A dog once seen never forgotten. 2)The dog has to be "structuraly" sound. 3) It has to be a working dog and i have to like the way he does the job (his bite, his character,...) 4) As little as possible inline breeding 5) It's pedigree should be compatible with the bitches.
The order i put them in is simply the order in which i like to check things from first glance to an investigation of the pedigree
1)The dog has to have personality. It should have a lot of wow-effect for me. A dog once seen never forgotten. 2)The dog has to be "structuraly" sound. 3) It has to be a working dog and i have to like the way he does the job (his bite, his character,...) 4) As little as possible inline breeding 5) It's pedigree should be compatible with the bitches.
- Very strong personality, dominant, certainly not sporty type - Not submissive - Very charismatic - Good hips and teeth - Strong physical constitution, muscular - Athletic
However (contrary to posts above) I consider line breeding as a very strong factor for good results. Most top dogs come out of line bred combinations. Outcrosses that give super quality are exceptions.
When you go back to the very beginning of the working dogs, the famous foundation males Carak and Cabil and the foundation bitch Criquette were litter mates. They were combined together very often and form the basis of the working malinois.
Very successful combinations in NVBK out of line breeding on Cartouche, Snap and Sam (also litter mates).
Other example is line breeding on Bibber and Vitou (half brothers).
One thing however is very important with line breeding. The line has to be very strong physically as well as mentally because positive but also negative factors will come out more strongly.
Maybe we should turn the problem around...Of course most top dogs come out of inline bred cominations: it's how it's done 95% of the time: the probability is higher to get one good dog out of 95 than out of 5! (Other combinations are done only 5% of the time so they produce less...)
Genes aren't all in a dog, they are just a small part of it -education, good trainer, good decoy make all the difference.
Check how many Xmalinois in Holland are GREAT dogs, with a huge heart...
Genes aren't all in a dog, they are just a small part of it -education, good trainer, good decoy make all the difference.
Well this is just what I wanted to say about sporty dogs: Good training can make all the difference for SPORTS but this surely doesn't make them good STUDS!
Well then I guess, since I have one dog with great ancestors (G'vitou, Othar de la Noaillerie, Dusty du clos de Savoie, Robin de la Fontaine du Buis, Eik des 2 Pottois, Xjelaba?), I should consider my self lucky?and I actually don't.
On the other hand, I also have a dog with no great ancestors at all.
And come to think, if my second dog wasn't neutered, believe me that's the one I would be producing with, not the first one? Quality of the dog, its work and character are incomparable! The second one is pretty much a top dog when it comes to the strength of the character, will to work and please, dominance and harshness?but also very hard to work with...
Of course there is nothing wrong with a non-pedigreed dog.
Dounya may not have a pedigree but this doesn't mean that she can't come from good origin. Only thing is that you don't know them.
On the other hand a good pedigree doesn't guarantee a good dog but the odds to get one are better.
Very important is to use the top quality specimen out of the good lines as breeding stock.
If you have 1 super dog in a litter and a few good ones, then you have a super litter and the owners will be very satisfied. But you should be selective and only use the super one for breeding. That's the only way to maintain the quality of the breed.
True, Dounya doesn't have an FCI pedigree which also doesn't mean she has none at all (KCB pedigree).
I only wanted to point out that no matter if you're dog has a long list of glamourous ancestors (some of them may even appear several times in the line), it doesn't automatically mean it has a BIG heart.
Maybe it's even more flagrant in my case because I happen to have both... I bought my second dog because the lines sounded like top ones, and I had to have at least as good dog as my first one is, if not even better...It's actually not the case
But then I will go back to the part of a good trainer, good decoy...you can "build" a dog even if the basis isn't always that stable.And you can always pretend it comes from her bloodlines when you actually know that's not the full truth...Unfortunatelly heart can be helped and never "built".
As you know, crosses between St-Hubert and NVBK dogs are done on daily basis so sometimes when the pedigree says XYZ line it's only 1/2 true...some "studs" have also taken credit for offsprings they've never produced...but this is completely another discussion.
I also believe future of our dogs lies more in outline breeding that's why more and more St-Hub breeders come to NVBK for studs - "some lines are over-exploited, character of dogs is getting softer and the blood is getting thinner and 'tired'"...(said a St-Hub breeder to me recently).
Don't you think our dogs need an extra-hand in order to go on being the Formula 1 of dogs? Would sticking to same blood help out?
I would also like to point out the fact that several young malinois in my close entourage have been diagnosed with HD (sometimes severe), all of which come from well-known working bloodlines. Maybe outline breeding could help prevent this?
True, Dounya doesn't have an FCI pedigree which also doesn't mean she has none at all (KCB pedigree).
To me this means as much as an FCI pedigree. It may not be FCI recognized, but there also is a well considered breeding program behind these dogs.
I only wanted to point out that no matter if you're dog has a long list of glamourous ancestors (some of them may even appear several times in the line), it doesn't automatically mean it has a BIG heart.
I agree, there only is a very small % of dogs that can be called ?top class?, no matter the lines
But then I will go back to the part of a good trainer, good decoy...you can "build" a dog even if the basis isn't always that stable.And you can always pretend it comes from her bloodlines when you actually know that's not the full truth...Unfortunatelly heart can be helped and never "built".
Very true! That?s why it is VERY important to know the dog you consider taking as a stud thoroughly! Not only by watching his trials, but (MUCH more important) by watching him while training and, if possible, not on his own decoy. Is he dominant? Is he confident? Does he like to work? Can he take pressure from the handler or does the handler have to be careful not to be too demanding? Does the decoy have to help him? Weaknesses come out during a training session.
As you know, crosses between St-Hubert and NVBK dogs are done on daily basis so sometimes when the pedigree says XYZ line it's only 1/2 true...some "studs" have also taken credit for offspring they've never produced...but this is completely another discussion.
True, but these breeders do know the real origin behind the dogs
I also believe future of our dogs lies more in outline breeding that's why more and more St-Hub breeders come to NVBK for studs - "some lines are over-exploited, character of dogs is getting softer and the blood is getting thinner and 'tired'"...(said a St-Hub breeder to me recently).
That?s what breeders of working dogs always have done (at least in Ring). The problem you describe is more situated with IPO breeders (I refer to my other post ?which dog for which discipline?).
Don't you think our dogs need an extra-hand in order to go on being the Formula 1 of dogs? Would sticking to same blood help out?
If you are talking about the breeding mentioned in the paragraph above, I completely agree. Problem is that it is very difficult to make a Formula 1 dog act like a ?happy will to please pet?. Breeding in this direction deteriorates the real qualities of the breed. A malinois has to stay a malinois!
I would also like to point out the fact that several young malinois in my close entourage have been diagnosed with HD (sometimes severe), all of which come from well-known working bloodlines. Maybe outline breeding could help prevent this?
I don?t think so. I would prefer that a good HD certificate would be necessary to allow a dog to a breeding program. Otherwise the malinois will go in the same direction as the GSD in no time.
I am Norman, from the Philippines and i am an avid fan of A'Tim and a novice in this forum. My interest vis-a-vis our topic on stud qualities concerns Tim's offspring Deno (a.k.a. Quattro). Sometime ago when i visited your website you described Deno as perhaps being a "super stud". I am aware that he has a different handler now and i haven't kept track of his career in the NVBK-BR but may i ask if you could kindly elaborate on what you observed are the things which stood out about him specifically concerning the following traits: 1. Character and environmental adaptabilty 2. Teachability 3. Speed of entry 4. Extent of bite 5. Depth ang strength of grip 6. Ease of the "out" If in your opinion he is still as you say a "super stud", what would be the character of the female that he would best bred to if your goal is to produce a "dual purpose" (service and sport) dog.
I don't check different parameters since they can be influenced by good or bad training. I only look at the personality of the dog (dominance, grip, can he take pressure) and the constitution (good hips and elbows, can he jump, etc...)
Deno is a good dog indeed, but I don't have any particular preference for him as a stud. I think he has all the qualities, but I can name quite a few others I'd like using just as much.
By the way, I didn't know he is with another handler now?
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