"In some big part I don't agree with you. iff you have a good helper in IPO on a trial he will select the dogs and when your dog has this "weakness" that sharpness the dog is going from the arm and I know because i have seen it happen due to other helpers and due ro my hand as a helper in IPO." as stated by Bjorn.
I believe that the biggest part of what you're saying here is not the sharpness of the dog but perhaps "the heart" of the dog not being there. You can train a dog all you want but you could never give it the heart or courage to take on a good helper if it's not there naturally. If it was so nervy that it would move grips all over, then it's not worth training in my opinion but then I could be mistaken what others or most would do. What would most of you do if you had a nervy dog? Juan
not the sharpness of the dog but perhaps "the heart" of the dog not being there. You can train a dog all you want but you could never give it the heart or courage to take on a good helper if it's not there naturally.
Hi Juan,
You are right here. I read the same: not the sharpness but the heart of the dog. But however, you seems looking to discuss an difficult to catch definition of sharpness and "heart of the dog". Hard to catch because talking about a difficult mix as can be read in this article: http://www.belgiansworld.com/activities_police_teusarticle.htm .
What I am saying: a dog can be born with natural sharpness AND with the heart to fight. However the quality of the fight might be wrong for IPO -where we do look for calm grip and the dog believing it's just a game- but outstanding for sentry dogs -where we do look dogs to survive deadly battle with intruders-.
I am very interested in this discussion you look to start and encourage you to go on. Can I ask you to explain a little more about yourself and your definition of a good dog which fits your purpose?
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If it was so nervy that it would move grips all over, then it's not worth training in my opinion but then I could be mistaken what others or most would do. What would most of you do if you had a nervy dog? Juan
I have trained a few 'nervy' dogs with lot of patience. The mistake people often make is to put dogs on the edge into defence because looks spectacular. And...I must say: it's too easy to put them in defence because natural triggered. Lot of patience to train those 'sharp' or 'nervy' dogs into prey and social behavior first (I train dogs straight from 9 weeks) and lot of trust the potential of being sharp is there. When I feel the power of prey is put into the dog at correct level I then start putting defence into the fight but decoy has to switch back to passive mode when dog shows maximum fight and firm grip. Patience in building up and finally you get a dog with a deadly crushing bite because the nerves pumps up the dog but the brain knows just to hold a grip.
Those dogs however I only train for high end guard dogs or special police force.
To keep those trained dogs in sport gives problems because soon enough the program is too easy and you find yourself in problem with out or clean bark and hold: dogs pushing the decoy into action themselves. But..I must say I know of some top trainers able to keep those dogs in sport and get high levels in top.
---- An example of training is with this young dog. I received an update on this pup I had selected and placed:
I just wanted to tell you a little more about the "monster" you sent me! I was playing with the puppy sleeve with her and making her miss a couple of times before giving her a bite. She got frustrated and bit a chunk out of my side when I pulled the sleeve away. Awesome dog!!! ..... She doesnt release that sleeve for anything!! I've wrapped her up in tarps, pulled her through a small child's pool, put her in a trash can, and rolled her around on the ground. She seems to enjoy being introduced to new things and going new places for the bitework.
I have adviced the handler not to introduce this young dog into decoy and defence but build confidence first, only being trained in prey and grip. And sharp this dog is with a strong 'heart' to go for.
Here in Finland we have 2 Boscaille dogs. Other is younger copy of Vainqueur du Boscaille "Toto" (Nik van Nedyehrevhof - Ribambelle du Boscaille). Big and strong dominating male, he has also quite a much sharpnes, very intense dog, super tracker, good grips. Has compited year 2001 at IPO world ch, placed 21. And other is Xyrvo du Boscaille, also big dog, not very sharp and not very driven, good tracker. He is grandson of Nik.
My comment for the ring was that since there is more prey movements in the sport of ring , iperhaps it is possible that it would be more difficult to work a dog that's too sharp [more defensive] in prey. Although I am not certain how the puppies or young dogs are started for BR.
In BR there is very little prey movement on the part of the decoy as in FR. The decoy IS NOT a tempting looking prey to the dog. However, to start the dog off you have to start in Prey first, because there is so much that you must train your dog to do you must have high prey drive to get your dog to do them. Like the jumps, if your dog doesn't have a prey item he loves and is willing to work for, it is extremely difficult and I'll stop short of saying impossible because anything is possible especially if your Teus . Having prey drive doesn't just coralate to bitework.
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My name is Norman and I'm new to the forum. A name that keeps on recurring in the pedigrees of some the french working lines (specifically the Calavaire aux Acacias dogs) is Espoir du Boscaille. Has anyone had the opportunity to see hin work or better still train with him? Would certainly appreciate your info. Many thanks.
Hi Espoir du Boscaille is a dog that Mr Lebon bought from Mr Vanhulle Julien. Espoirs real name is Micky. He was trained by julien in de club of Leke by Lucien Rieviere.The dog had NVBK papers and became a DU Boscaille when Mr Lebon bought him. So this confirm what was said before about the double books. So you can only geuss for the real parents.other dogs from du boscaille are also dogs from nvbk but that nobody can see on the pedigree. I am Luciens best friend and till Julien died a couple of years ago I spend lots of time with him. I have the original scorebook when micky did competition in de VAV. I have the original paper he got for becomming Belgian champion. I have also original pictures and pedigree. When Mr lebon had micky a couple of months he came back to our club to train because he had no control over the dog. Lucien trained him and gave a demonstration, As a reward he got Gaillard du Boscaille who became 3 times belgian champion cat 3 2 and 1 . And only at the age of 10 years he was not on the podium then he was 6th the other years he became 2 times 2nd and 1 time 3rd. With this dog I started in ringsport as a decoy. Johan
Thanks very much for the input. Was he a hard dominant dog? I read from other fora that he was a difficult trainee and this gained him notoriety. Is he good stud material in your opinion?
Hi Johan, Do you know of any Kim Du Boscaille breedings to any good belgian females and are there any kennels carrying this bloodline anywhere? Would like any leads. Juan
I know that many bitches out of kim were x'd to Nik v. Nedyehrhof (incorrect spelling). There is a kennel that has only Boscaille lines called Bois du Limite.
Truly sorry but I have no detailed info about the locations/owners of those dogs mentioned. You have to do the searchwork by yourself- for example find a good search engine, put "dogs name" and hit "search".
Tho- here is something to start with; after dogs name you can see the letters from it?s reg.nr and that is the recent info about the possible location of the dog.
As a shortness for "Du Boscaille" I now on use "DB".
Siblings for Kim DB: Incan DB losh, Kaline DB losh.
Half siblings for Kim- (sire?s side): Jacna DB losh, Krack DB Ring 3 losh, Look DB lof
Kim DB?s breeding info:
x Hola DB-> N?Crack DB losh x Line DB-> Novak DB ipo3 nhsb b.25.7.1989 x Jana DB->Ori DB dl, Orta DB losh b.18.8.1990 x Lakme DB->Paddy DB losh, Pershing DB ring3 dl b.12.6.1991 x Lakme DB-> Shelter DB ring2 losh b.2.4.1994 x Raquette DB-> Tirca DB
Bolded offsprings have been used for breeding and here is their breeding info:
Pershing x Gaelah DB dl-> Bonjon?s ALlegro von Metloff dl, Metloff Kama?s Bosca de Pershing dl b.14.2.1997 Pershing x Hippie von der Schoenen Elke-> L?Kalie des Ducs de la Fontane dl, L?Kings des Ducs de la Fontaine dl b.2.1.1995
Paddy x N?Crac-> Quirana DB lof b.23.10.1992 (Quirana bred with Quajac 2Pottois-> Race Rocks Basca b.13.7.1996)
Orta x Krac DB-> Quovadis du Rouge Fasse ring 3 losh Novak x Freija-> Dino dl b.5.10.1992 (Dino bred with Max?s Kaycee dl-> Asia dl)
N?Crac x Line DB-> Raquette DB->
Raquette DB x Kim DB-> Tirca DB
Hope this helps you with keywords for searching.
-Birdie-
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. Having prey drive doesn't just coralate to bitework.
