Opinions on this tape are different from person to person but I have a feeling that he did go too far.. I belive they want their dogs to learn too much in short time.. And ofcourse this dog is resistant...
I don't think there was enough video there to form an opinion. A) the video was cut up into bits. So what did PETA cut out? B) it's never clear to me what exercise they were even working on C) Every time the handler took the dog down, it was in response to the dog attempting to bite the handler. This was what I saw in the video. The dog was in drive. At one point it looked like it was for a toy on top the car, other times it looked like it was for something off the screen that we can't see. The handler wasn't letting the dog get to whatever it was, so the dog kept attempting to bite the handler. The handler was taking the dog down in response to the bites, as soon as the dog "gave in" by going limp the handler was letting the dog up and they were starting over. The dog wasn't super serious about biting the handler, more of a punk seeing how far he could push things, and redirected drive. If he'd been serious about biting the handler that handler would have been bit. He wasn't fast enough or experienced enough to avoid it. I also found it interesting that right at the very end the trainer you can hear in the background starts to say how he doesn't like to do this to a dog, but you can see and then they cut the video off. It's video that's been edited to try to get a response from people. Without knowing what they were even trying to work on with the dog, I can say that if my dog attempted to bite me, he'd get a correction also. And yes I have sat on dogs before, when dealing with a dog who was serious about putting his teeth into my skin. But these weren't dogs taking a nip, these were dogs who intended to BITE. It's been years since I've worked with a dog like that, but sometimes physically holding them down and just giving everyone a minute to "think" can defuse the situation and prevent the human or dog from being injured. That said, many times the situation could have been avoided all together by recognizing what was coming and redirecting the dog before it gets to that point.
I can only agree with malndobe. The dogs is as far as I can tell never mistreated. This is a strong-willed dog who wanted to get his way.
You can also clearly see that we did not see the entire event because otherwise we might see that there were long periods in between the dog being corrected.
Saskia
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Close to my opinion.. wish we would be able to see the whole story. This is not abuse, well at least looks like it is not, I didn?t put this on to get strong reactions since I know some people would make abuse from it and some will say that it is not. I watched this tape like 50 times and I can see that he is doing his best. He did go to far if this was going on for couple of hours because this type of dog is maybe not for this handler. Maybe a switch of handlers so more experienced one get this mal.
PETA is organization that helps with animals and this is not the worst tape (but i guess it gives reaction for witch it was made for).. people who have dogs for their kids would react on this I am sure. But at the end dog is a dog, it can be family member but cannot be your kid.
I used to have a dog that was agressive toward other dogs (dominance was probably the other thing too) and sceens like this were quite common (if you would tape it and put it together it would look something like this).
Anyway this dog will need a lot of work I just hope that police took it?s time with it.
And I must admit that this handler had a lot of nervs. ? I would probaly lose mine long time ago.
Bye, Raven
« Last Edit: October 22, 2004, 03:17:00 PM by Raven »
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
I agree with you all about the video. You can not tell the thing they are trying to learn the dog. This makes it hard to tell if the dog needs this way of correcting. In my opinion you can tell from this video it is not working. A correction is ownly a correction if the dogs feels it that way. This dog keeps making the same mistake, so the correction did not stop the behaviour. So eighter the dog did not understand it ore coupled it to the behaviour the handler wanted to stop ore the dog did not feel it as a correction. By watching this video I feel the dog does not understand the correction in the end he yaps the tail is between the legs and it goes in the direction of fear aggression still he does the same the moment he is on his four legs again. The handler is not hurting the dog he is trying to be dominant over the dog to correct its behaviour. So my opinion: he is not hurting the dog but making it insecure and it seems like the dog is not learning anything he just does not understand his handler anymore. I would like to see the whole video to see if the dog learns to behave the right way at the end. Just the parts that will shock people are put together. jeannet
On the basis of the video you can't make a judgement. Clearly it was editted. But the source of it indicates to me that it is manipulated to the max. Peta is an organisation that tries to "free" all animals and in doing so is in disregard with common law. In name of its philosofie acts of burglary, vandalisme, stalking, murder, arsenal and political murder have been commited.These aren't paranoid ideas but well documented on a dutch site of ALF (animal liberation front an organisation which actions are based on PETA's philosofy) this is only in Holland and Belgium
Knowing that Peta-director Ingrid Newkirk announced that tests on animals in labs has to be banished, evenif it would be at the expence of human life: 'Even if the use of animals would deliver a cure against aids; why humanity has grown as a cancer. We are the biggest problem on earth.'-[
So the aim of peta isn't the defence of animal rights but the distruction of western society as we know it
I agree with all of you, I certainly don't think there's enough time to form an opinion but from what I see the dog is not abused in any way. I'm sure that many of us have put a dog down to establish dominance, maybe not as rough as what we see here but with the same intent. What struck me as odd, is that looking at the handler, he looks like he's none too experienced, and I don't find him dominant enough for this kind of dog. I think this dog would be much better off with a more experienced handler, I'd like to think that the dog's being all over the place is due to the handler being underqualified, not knowing where and how to focus the dog. Does anyone agree with me on this?
First of all, I didn't like what I see, but then again - when it comes to police dog training; I know nothing. Maybe they have to be this hard to the dog in training... but the thing I reacted upon - was the fact that he lifted the dog up and threw it down on the ground. This can seriously give the dog damage, I know this since it's happened to a dog I know...
But as other messages said; there was to little shown for us to really tell the whole story...
Listen to the voice of the trainer givin?the handler instructions: it was maybe 20 years ago when I was last time told to "look at the eys of the dog". Listen to the voice of the dog: does it sound like it?s about to kill or bite the handler?
I hear a sound of a dog who is "on the drive" and not let to finish it. I think lifting him or her up into that point and not letting him finish it is pointless training. You are right about in "not seeing what the dog was trained for" but one assume could be "calming down". This sort of "lifting" and not let to finish is just lifting the stress-levels- nothing else. Frustration comes out of it- and frustration leads into aggression. That is one of the first things learned in judge-training. I would have bite the handler, too.
Good-nerved working dog would not need this kind of training and this video- nevertheless it was edited or not- keeps me and my puppies away from U.S police. (Tho we never would contact them or vice versa )
- Birdie -
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Looks like a handler issue if anything, plus the video was cut in several places. The dog was in drive and the handler couldnt handle it. Plus the dog had a flat collar on. This brings up a point that I've seen several individuals that are in a k9 unit for Laww Enforcement and shouldnt be! And I'm not even gonna go into the PETA issue
B) it's never clear to me what exercise they were even working on ?C) Every time the handler took the dog down, it was in response to the dog attempting to bite the handler.
answer to B/ This training is to have a dog quiet when in cover. The handler needs full attention for the situation outside and the dog has to stay in calm position..especially when gun fire of handler comes.
Answer to C/ No this dog wasn't biting the handler at all. He was corrected for being a nuisance and barking.
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You see very well the idea behind the training, but still I think there was no logic behind the correction. The dog didn't learn anything from. In my opinion there was no intelligent solving of this training problem but simple to the core: dog barks and thus corrected..over and over. Best would be to split training in several pieces and make the dog learn why and what and how. This training is difficult for a dog and needs lot of focus on. I also thinks the guy went to far, but also sees he doesn't know any other option to solve this problem.
I didnt like what I saw either. Mostly because the handler couldnt give a correction that worked on this dog. As someone earlier said, the dog didnt seem to understand the correction and that makes him frustrated and I suppose, in the long run unsecure and stressed.
If he's punishing the dog by sitting on top of it, why isnt he doing it until the dog gives up (even if it would take hours... or even if he would get bitten), or why isnt he trying something else because he's correction obviously doesnt work... and throwing the dog into air... hmm... hope the dog didnt get injuries...
It's too sad when people with too little experience are taking care of dogs they cant handle. Maybe this wasnt the case in this video, who knows, because we dont know anything else than what we see
That guy did a text book move, I didn't see him get stupid with the dog, plain and simple he spoke pack leader language and alpha rolled him, forced into submission without hurting the dog. The man should stand up and take a bow, atleast he can control his dog.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
I digress, I thought from the footage that the dog was biting at his handler, That would be the only time I would do something like that, if the dog got kinda serious on me with his mouth. If he didn't bite the handler but was just barking, then yes that was very incorrect by the handler.
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"You goddamned yellow belly, how dare you breath the same air as these men!!" ~GEN. GEORGE PATTON? WWII
The video is too cut and basically personally edited for personal adgendas. So you really can not make an opinoin until you see the whole story. Of course I'm asumming it was posted on the internet by PETA. I would have to see the whole training session.
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I would probaly lose mine long time ago.
And I'm not even gonna go into the PETA issue 
