At belgians world you have an article written about coat and color genetics. There I mentioned that it is possible (although at that time I thought it was purely theoretical) to have a rough haired long haired dog.
Yesterday I found that theory became practice:
Behold the picture of the rough long haired BSD (go to the bottom of the page, left picture, you can't miss it)
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I would call it neither. Tervs aren't wired haired and Laeken's don't have long hair. Just like a short haired black dog is neither a Groen or a Malinois. It's a "variety" without name.
Although I support crossing Mals and Laeken's to open up the gene pool, and feel the breeders who do this truly have a "long term plan" in mind, I'm not sure why someone would cross a Terv and Laeken. It introduces the long haired gene to EVERY pup in the litter, and Laeken's are not supposed to be long haired. They are short wire haired dogs. It limits the future breeding options instead of widening them, since now a breeder trying to produce a proper Laeken coat has to try to avoid that recessive long haired gene.
This is certainly a special looking dog, never saw anything like this before. This way you can breed long, rough haired, grey ....sheperts. I would not know how to call this dog. At least this dog proves the B.S.D. is a special breed indeed
if you bread malinois with laekenois why than not with tervueren? It increases the genepool, and thats very important. It has been done in the early years also with groenendael. But you have to bread at least 3 or 4 generations futher on to get dogs who realy look like laekenois.
Long hair is just not possible for a laekenois. Mali x Laeken always give short haired dogs and they can always be divided in either Mali or Laeken. Terv x Mali is also not a problem since you have Tervs being born from Mali litters. Groen x Mali is also a problem although less since black Malis are not allowed for FCI but there are kennel clubs (the second Kennel Club in Belgium is one of them) who allow black Malis.
But Laeken x Terv might provide Long rough haired dogs. This dog has long hair which is not an option for a laeken and rough hair which is not an option for a Terv. On top of that, all puppies in the litter will carry the gene for long hair which limits option of breeding mates.
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I read some of you wrote of the laekan that should have rough short hair. but in the standard you can read that the Laekens should have hair of about 6 cm all over the body except on the head, there it should be shorter.
I have seen the picture of the dog mentioned, and I agree, that it looks like a Picardie.
Isn't rough hair dominant above short and long hair? Than this dog should have long rough hair with no curls or anything. I seen he is the male in this litter, his sisters look more like Malinois with some longer hair in the coat. Is it a coincidence that only the male looks like the Picardie?
Short hair is dominant over long hair and rough hair is dominant over smooth hair.
Whether or not it is a coincidence that there is only 1 long haired rough dog, I am not sure. Everything depends on the genetic make-up of the female
Othello is a homozygotous dog whwhll (smooth long) Ushas might be WhWhLl (rough short) or WhwhLl (rough short)
In case Ushas has the first set of genes there is a 50% for a rough longhaired dog while with the second set of genes you only have 25% chance for such a dog.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Short hair is dominant over long hair and rough hair is dominant over smooth hair. Othello is a homozygotous dog whwhll (smooth long) Ushas might be WhWhLl (rough short) or WhwhLl (rough short)
Actually, Ushas (or any Laekenois) could be LLWhWh, LLWhwh, LlWhWh, or LlWhwh.
So you need to plot four possibilities...leading to possible outcomes of 100% short rough, 50% short rough/50% short smooth, 50% short smooth/50% long rough, and 50% short rough/50% long smooth.
And that's just *probabilities* in a perfect world!
The Cymbal litter puppies I have seen at maturity have short touseled coats. Not as hard as the rough-coated Malinois I've had my hands on...more dry texture than hard.
The dog Dinah I may have seen as a puppy (I believe so) but not as an adult. Based on the photo I would assume she is llWhwh.
But this is a dangerous assumption, because this would dictate that Ushas *must* be LlWhwh. However, in such a breeding the only outcomes should be short smooth and long rough...and that's not what we're seeing. At least not exactly. We have a pile of short rough-ish, and one long rough-ish.
So this suggests that 1) we can't assume genotype based on phenotype (Dinah could be badly in need of stripping...I could send you to photos of dogs I know to be *rough* coated with both parents Laekenois that can approach this appearance if their owners refuse to strip. Esp in IV situations, some owners are very sensitive to stripping for fear the coat won't come back!) And 2) it also suggests that these punnett squares are bunk when it comes to this sort of IV breeding. They simply can't represent what we know about incomplete dominance of rough over smooth in a meaningful way.
Ushas could just as easily be LLWhwh and Dinah could be a "normal" Laekenois LlWhwh in terrible need of stripping.
We absolutely know rough coat is incompletely dominant to smooth. That's why you see it pop up in certain Malinois breedings.
This is also why some pretty specific IV breedings of Laekenois to Malinois have been done...to capitalize on the possibility of getting those rough genes from the Malinois, as well, with a more "typical" F0 generation and quicker return to variety typical coat. It doesn't always work, of course, because of those spoiler genes lurking around.
There are a lot of longhair genes just "floating around" out there. The same "half long" coat you sometimes see out there in a Malinois litter also affects many Laekenois imo. Most likely LlWhwh. And when that longhair gene connects with another longhair gene, you can end up with llWhWh or llWhwh.
In Laekenois, there is one "pivotal" dog that crossed over to the other side from a Malinois breeding. Eliott de la Terre Aimee (a Laekenois) is a son of Iago du Maugre x Java du Maugre.
Iago is out of Ego x Gaya. Ego is a son of Aronde who is essentially a full sibling to Ajax. (Xoum x Yoda vs Xaro x Yoda...Xoum and Xaro being siblings). Gaya is inbred on Ajax. Java is the daughter of Hami, who is tightly linebred on Ajax.
Many, many Laekenois carry Eliott for better or worse. I have not seen Eliott nor do I have a picture. Having seen relatives born in Malinois to Malinois breedings, I assume he had a similar "broken" coat (think coconut mat) but little or no garniture.
More recently you'll find Yankee du Hameau St. Blaise, out of Steed du Hameau Saint Blaise (M) x Nouchka de la Casa du Barry (M). Yankee was rough-haired and registered as a Laekenois, entering the Laekenois genepool with a breeding to Xwoest vd Duvetorre. I believe there are a couple of youngish Balderlo or Baiser Ourageaux dogs that are the product of rough-out-of-Malinois x Laekenois as well.
It's my personal opinion that breeding Laekenois to the Tervuren just further complicates things, leading to more "Laeken-whats"...dogs that don't fit clearly into any existing coat category for several generations. It's not a breeding that is endorsed by any parent clubs because of this. The rub is that in the cases I've seen of purposeful (Tello x Ushas) and accidental (the recent Australian litter) IV breedings of LH to Rough the pups often *look* more like Laekenois than many F0 Laekenois x Malinois breedings. And I can tell you that people interested in Laekenois are attracted to the LOOK, not just the good feeling they'll get buying a puppy from a breeding that helps the genepool increase with novel bloodlines.
In the seventees the breeder von Lichtental had an accidential litter Tervueren male with Laekenois female. She showed me photos of the litter. Adult they looked more like Malinois with beard, no dog in the litter had longer hairs.
Bonjour I? am new on this forum, I was surfing to find information on Laeken coat genetic and came across these very interesting discussions. so I did suscribe to this forum !!! it is the only one I participate in actually!
If I am right, Mrs JDecker is talking about the breeding of ULU and Usco and it is interesting to see that nobody in the discussion talk about the fact that malinois also carries long hair gene as Usco was.? Usco did give tervuerens in his progeny and I have a terv male who comes out of him.
So crossing some malinois who carries long hair gene is somewhat similar to breeding to terv in theorie !
In fact (MULRIE) this terv from usco, has a half long(like many terv out of mal), coarse and dry coat that was quite weavy when he was a pup(like usco) and I just got a laekenois litter from this terv male and my Leaken female!!!
this terv male has excellent working dispositions, as much as most of the malinois of his background in fact.? Since I did want to improove working ability. the malinois I have are carrying long coat and? their coat are softer so I did use the terv from Usco line because I taught he would throw better coat ....
good thing or bad thing time will tell...
one thing is sure the genepool of these "laeken pups" is not related to a lot of other laeken?
Michel
P.S.? I hope you will excuse the spelling mistakes and understand the idea I am trying to express because I usually write and speak in french
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in theorie !
