I have a dog that was just returned to me about almost 2 weeks ago. This dog will be turning 3 this coming April.
Anyway, the previous owners don't want to fess up but I am positive this dog has been abuse by the man of the family or by the man trainer who trained him. In any regards, any women can approach him no problem but as soon as a man (any man) tries to approach him he will bare his teeth and he will go as far as to snap a man's hand.
I really nee expert advice here on what to do about this situation. Is it too late for this dog to learn that men are OK? Or is it a done deal? How do I go about to correct this dog from this bad behavior??? Other than that he is really a nice dog!
I had a dog with similar if not worse behaviors. And also he came to me as almost a grown up. First of all I think there are many things involved with your case: bad or improper socialization, bad training or even as you said bad treatment. But never mind, the whole truth you will probably not even know.
So you just have to start from the beginning: do as you would with your pup, socialize him again step by step, never go further than he is prepared. Most aggression comes from fear (well not all) and Im sure this is most likely the case with your dog. Like you said if the problem is only man: socialize him with them. But you really have to go step by step here. First only play with him around men at the distance that it does not bother him, then go a step further until you come that close that he can play with a guy. Be very careful not to do anything that would cause him stress. Don?t allow strangers to lean over him. Belgians are very sensitive to body language. And also when a new person plays with him, first they should leave the dog to lead the game, they should not talk to him in soft voice or anything, look away and all the things that in general means less confronting. Then do in the same way with everything, after play, you can start by others giving him threats, slowly touching him and so on.. And please this does take time, don?t expect miracles overnight. And probably you will have to continue through all his life in some degree. Just don?t give up, with proper training you can do so much? Well again I will mentioned this grate book I read and witch I strongly and most wormy recommend The Canine Aggression Workbook by James O'Heare It can give you a lot of answears to your questions too.
Like Nikki wrote, you never would know the truth completely which would reveal the reason why the dog in case is a 'man hater'. I do agree with the progress of training as explained by Nikki. This reaction to man where the cause has to be found in trauma can't be corrected but only guided out by love and patience into the behavior you might seek. Correction only will reinforce the 'truth' for the dog, thus reinforce the hate for man and people. Together with this 'slow turning' keep in mind you also have to train your dog when (!) the behavior to act aggressive to man -people- is good. This way you give the dog a change to play with his learned action which comes out natural but also learns when it is okay and when not....but more important easier to make him stop.the same as teach a dog to speak on command before you can teach him to shut up.
However, when you will see very quick positive change of behavior and sooner the softer and nicer character of the dog evolves together with a strong bond for the owner who shows love, trust and patience. This only will be in safe environment and with known people. It takes a long road before you will see the 'man' focus disappear completely, if at all. I have walked this path of behavior problem fix a few times and what I learned is twofold: the dog can (!) change this behavior but at the same time never will forget the trauma caused him to hate man. If re homed where people realize this and are able to control then no big problems will arise, but the trigger to make him snap back in old habit always will be tense.
The good part is those dogs most of the time turns out excellent guard dogs or Personal Protection for woman (in this case it is). But the new owner must be fully aware of this behavior and give lot of love and be patience to guide this dog out of the psychological mess.
What I say: don't give up on this dog and think of possible new homes that would fit this dog.
What a breeder used to do with Terv pups which were very insecure and bit everything coming close to them, was to first socialize them with 1 strange person which was most of the time me as I was also her puppy instructor and a friend of the breeder.
When she was used to me, I would take the pup for little walks either with Yentos or with one of the other dogs. During these walks, I always warned strangers not to touch the pup but to pet Yentos (who is a social dog). Gradually she came closer and closer to the strange people and learnt that strangers are not per definition bad and that she could also have the attention the way Yentos did if they could touch her.
I think the most important thing is to make sure that while you re-socialize him, he doesn't have a negative experience.
Aicka is now 3.5 and it is not gone completely but she tolerates everybody in her surrounding and she likes being touched by a lot of people, even if she doesn't know them.
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
I did my first mistake then. I brought my boy to obedience class. Though he was a bit nervous at first he finally calmed down about half way through. You see, one thing I do know, is that the previous 'trainer' had convince the past owners that this dog was a vicious dog when he was about 6 to 8 months old and shouldn't be put into regular basic obedience class but on a one on one basic class.
Well like I said, everything was find until it was time for the examination time. I noticed that my boy was a little bit nervous and I could tell from his eyes. When the first woman approached him, you could tell he was not comfortable with the situation but I gave the woman some treats and everything went fine. Same thing with the second and third woman. Then came one man. I gave him a treat just like the women and he approach my boy. He was very close to him and the dog stood his ground. When the man extended his hand with the treat, the dog then reacted automatically, didn't care for the treat and went for the man's fingers! Of course I corrected him.
So if I read you correctly, by doing this I only reinforce his reason to hate man even more?? Can I still start from the beginning with him like Nikki said by playing with him around one man? Or will that correction stay in his mind and he will not respond to a new training method?
Isn't it better to first get him used to men in a surrounding where he feels comfortable?
At the club where my parents are a member, they had a GSD like this (women were fine, men weren't). And they first got him used to men at home in a surrounding where he felt safe. Of course Uber was only 13 months old when they rescued him (with him it was clear that he was mistreated as he had cigarette marks on his muzzle)
It took little over a year to get him "fixed" although it never went away completely.
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Well I agree with Saskia. Don?t ask to much of him. I think first of all you have to be really honest and ask yourself a question, do you really want to make it better, will you rehome him or maybe the problem its not that big deal? And again, no matter how you would like this dog to be super social and all that, sometimes allowing all people pet him it?s just to much. Set realistic goals for this individual dog. Well then you have to go step by step. Yes sometimes it takes time. In my case it took a whole year to get better. I really did not want to sound hard on you, but it?s the same with all therapies, you need realistic goals and then go step by step, only this works long term.
Good subject to make us think on the mind of the dog.
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So if I read you correctly, by doing this I only reinforce his reason to hate man even more?? ?Can I still start from the beginning with him like Nikki said by playing with him around one man? Or will that correction stay in his mind and he will not respond to a new training method?
The power of dogs is how they adapt easily into new environments and learn quick. Dogs also sees very well when a correction is right and pure of heart. I don't think you have created a big problem which can't be solved anymore, I think it's more important to get an insight in the effect of corrections on dogs. Of course none of us can tell for sure how you have to train your dog for never met, but we can tell how we have done with ours.
The question at all is not if you can or not can correct your dog. However in such situation it's best not to do. The question then is how to channel the aggression/fear into some behavior which is acceptable. There are many roads leading to Rome.
I could give a few options I have in mind and you have to pick the one that fits: -ignorance: walk away when you see the dog gets nervous. walk in a circle back to the same spot where the man still is waiting. Repeat untill you see your dog is more relaxing. Then praise him and bring into safer spot.
-negative reinforcement: corrections untill the dog gives up snarling at all.
-positive reinforcement: give candy or tidbits as long as your dog watch you when a man comes towards the dog. Reinforce the dog to ignore the outer world and focus you as strong leader.
-increasing conflicts: start with one man and same location untill okay and build this up to several people and strange locations.
This list can go on..
The right choice of training depends on the 'why' and, if exist, the 'past trauma'... but do question yourself also if possible all is pure fear only because 'soft' nerves ?
To come back to your answer: no, it's never to late to change your training into the one that fits best. However it might takes a little longer to find the the problem being fixed.
No this dog will never be a rehome! He will stay here with me for like I had mentioned earlier, I always regretted to let him go in the first place. He was second pick of my litter. I am extremely glad he came back problem or not!
Tribu is very well trained obedience wise but like I said he was always trained on a one to one basis. I took him to my regular class to have him see other dogs in training and not to have him touched by a man or men. The situation arose when my instructor insisted that a man touch my dog for she wanted to see how he would react even though she was already warn that the possibility that he might snap may occur.
When the man approach Tribu (Tribu was in a sit stay mode) you could tell that he was nervous just by the look in his eye. He never broke his sit stay. Even when the man was standing not even a foot away. Even with treats, Tribu wanted nothing to do with those and snapped when the man's hand was within his reach (even with the treat in the man's hand). Tribu would have been fine if the man didn't try to advance his hand but just stood there.
I have trained several dogs before in my lifetime but never with this kind of problem. I know it is a serious problem and I certainly want to work with positive reinforcement.
Unfortunately there is no man in my life and I can't count on my family (I have one brother) who is already afraid of dogs! My Dad who does have a gift with animals is too old and have no patience for stuff like this.
I do want to make Tribu's life better with having men involve in his environment. I am doing this not to replace him but to be able to show him under a man judge someday! Maybe my expectencies are too high and I should just do Rally O and concentrate on Agility where he doesn't have to be touched by a judge.
I know you haven't seen Tribu in action but last night when he snapped at the man you knew he meant business! I didn't imaginae the extent of Tribu's behavior. You could almost feel the hatred coming out of him!
I just wish I had someone who lived close to me and who had experience with this kind of problem. I know that I definitely want Tribu getting over this fear or nastiness he has toward men.
So I guess my first step by step would just be walking Tribu in different crowds where he will meet different men? Like I said, as long as they do not try too touch him, Tribu shouldn't react. Anyway, I will try this over the weekend and come back with an update.
I have kept all of your suggestions on file and will turn to them very often. But if you think of anything else, please send them my way. Thanks everyone for your response. I really want to get this dog back on track.
Oh by the way, you didn't come down hard on me at all! It will take a whole lot more than that to tick me off!
Hi mapbella! I had the same kind of problems with my older mal, so I can write down my experiences if it would be for some help to you.
In her case I think it was a lack of socialisation because she grew up in a kennel her first 9 months. She also had this thing towards men, but sometimes also against women. what you experienced last night also happened to me while we were at the dogclub training. In swedish obedience, the judge looks in the dogs mouth (teeth). So I had asked for a nice man to learn her to trust men to look in her teeth. It begun well, but as the man stroke the dog for longer and longer around her lips I felt how the dog became more tense and after a while the pressure was too high on her so she gave the man a bite on his hand.
What we did was that I told everyone to just ignore the dog, everyone that she didnt know. Then she didnt have to feel that someone came too close and put pressure on her. I decided not to compete obedience at least not for the time. Instead we trained other dogsports where noone had to look in her mouth or come close to her. There is though one thing in the swedish dogsport where you send the dog to a person like 50m and the dog has to sit down next to that person and he sends dog back to you. This we trained a lot. The person you send the dog to has lots of candy and the dog doesnt have to feel threatened because it is off leach and it's up to the dog to take kontact to the person. It took months before we even tried to get her to sit next to the person (that puts pressure on the dog and can be a bit creepy for her...)
So if the dog wants to make contact, it should be up to the dog. The other person should look away from the dog in the beginning and make no sudden movements until dog feels safe. We trained a lot with different unknown people who sat down, looked away and had candy in the hand so the dog could take kontact for herself.
You kind of have to adjust your own bahavior and try to get people around you to understand your dogs behavior. It hasnt been easy and I cant say I trust my dog still 100% that she beheves good in all situations and she turns 7 soon. But now she's much more selconfident and most of the time she gets along with men really well. If we have visitors, I still tell them to ignore the dog, but she for some reason nowdays always wants to be petted by men Good luck!
Ok, I finally manage to find out what happen to Tribu! So here goes! This will be quite long but I hope it will help some of you to understand where Tribu comes from and what he went through. Maybe after reading your suggestions you have all given me might change a bit or maybe you will think of other ways to proceed with him. So here goes!
As I had already pin point the source of Tribu's fear it was indeed from his instructor!!! This man was teaching basic obedience and did not tolerate imperfection. Tribu had to have perfect sits, perfect downs, perfect heeling, perfect stays and so forth. After the fourth or fifth lesson, the instructor took Tribu in hand to show the owners how to correct the dog so Tribu would do each exercice precicely right with absolutely no errors! I would like to add here that the instructor is a very dominant person and that he would push Tribu physically and roughly! He would never praise the dog. The poor dog became very wary of this man and didn't know where to put his head. That is where Tribu first growled at the instructor! Very bad move on Tribu's part with this trainer. The instructor defied Tribu to even try to do that again! He would hit the dog with the leash from one side to the other and he would talk extremely loud and even yell at him. When Tribu tried to retaliate, the man started to kick him hard. Tribu then started to cry and let himself be dominated by this jerk! Afterwards, Tribu would listen to this man without never trying to do otherwise. His spirit was literally crushed! I am sorry but as I am writing this I am crying my heart out knowing what my poor baby went through!!!
This instructor told the owners that this was the only way to act with Tribu if they ever wanted to accomplish anything with this dog. They believed him for he had 25 experience in the matter and had even wrote books on the subject. They didn't know any better!
Since then, Tribu will not let any man approach him! So now you know most of the story, does your opinion change on the suggestions you have given me?
Shoot the instructor. This man is not worth the term.
What I would do is the following since it is hard for you to do this at home:
Follow your obedience class but make sure that you have at least some 1 on 1 training with a man. Have the man stand somewhere and do some heeling. This will normally take his mind of the man and award him. If he panics because you come to close take him a bit further until he no longer panics. Gradually decrease the distance, have the man move around a bit but make sure he doesn't make any threating move. Reward him for good behaviour.
I would start with this. One thing is for sure, it will take a long time. I am curious to know how this will progress.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
So now you know most of the story, does your opinion change on the suggestions you have given me?
Forget the option to use negative reinforcement
I go with Saskia..
Please keep us posted. I am highly interested in the progress of training Tribu and what you might find out more. I always am happy people like you do exist.
My first dog was a rescue dog, she had been mistreated by her alcoholic male owner. She did not trust any man but never showed agression, she just tried to get away from man as far as possible. Especialy man with beards. I happend to have a neighbour then who carried a beard and "used" him to help my dog She loved food since this was something her previous owner forgot to give her quite often. I stopped feeding my dog and my neighbour walked past the dog dropping food every time he passed the dog, at first the distance was about 1 meter. She soon realised the food came every time the man passed her and started coming forward when she saw him. We did this for a couple of days and she extually started to look forward seeing my neighbour. Then we went one step further, the neigbour stood stil and dropped food while standing his ground it took her an other two secions ore so to get confortable with this situation. We builded further and further until he was able to feed her while looking her in the face. From that point on we worked towards generalization the behaviour with other man using only man I knew I could trust She never lost her fear compleetly but became quite good arround man
Like Sculpa and the others I will keep following your progres with interest
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?? Other than that he is really a nice dog!
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