One can only agree 100 percent with Kadi Thingvall regarding the Pinch/Prong/Spike Collar being far more humane and less damaging on a dog than the standard ?choke? collar/chain.
To begin with it is most important that the collar be fitted correctly. See the pic below:
So far as I am aware the Prong Collar isn?t banned in Holland at all. In any event, everyone I know in Holland uses them, and they are sold by all the suppliers of dog training equipment in Holland
The "choke" chain isn?t called a choke chain for nothing. But one needs to know how to use one?s tools. A good intro to the correct use of the Prong Collar can be found on the www.leerburg.com web site:
I started to use a normal collar when I started to train BR and I have done ever since. At the club where I trained BR we only used normal collar (or an e-collar).
When I gave puppy training, contrary to some of my collegues, never advised people to buy a chocking collar but a prong collar without the spikes (we are talking about all breed puppy training going from miniature schnauzer up to mastino napolitano) in case they needed it.
When I started with Yentos I used a very fine chocking line but as soon as I switched to BR I switch to a spikeless prong and later a normal collar. I haven't regretted the switch. And since then I advise against chocking collars as I find they have little added value and dogs just seems happier and better responding to a prong than a choking collar.
Whether the prong collars should have spikes or not, should be decided by the owner.
I wasn't aware that there had been a study on chocking vs prong and that the results were so different for the 2 types of collars.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Forgot something: Do you guys use the prong only for training or also for everyday use like taking your dog for a walk?
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Well in some way I agree that using prong collar is better than a normal choke collar. But somehow I can see that the opinion between normal pet owners is that prong collars or e.collars seems to be like the device from hell. Especially if they never used it themselves. But this same people train their dogs by non stop choking them. Personally Im still at that stage when I train mostly so called hand free or without a leash on. But I would rather put a prong collar on if needed. But then again its not all good. If we would just talk about experienced users and fair trainers, well then we would not have a problem. But reality is far beyond that ist it? More than a year ago when I used prong collar for a short period of time, he had it on most of the time (not indoors). It made sense to me. I used it also in a way that I just tap on it as a reminder (or marker) when he did not calm down. I did not use it like a normal choke collar, he knew what it meant and that was enough. But I did take it off when he played with dogs.
A "Pinch", "Prong" or "Spike" collar are just different names for exactly the same thing.
Some handlers/trainers I know even sharpen the prongs/spikes to a sharp point. This really seems like over-kill to me. But if you are training one of the "fighting breeds" like a Pittbull, you really don't have much choice. Then there are those that have even had to resort to "Electric Suits". For example, I have heard that G'BIBBER had to be trained on an electric suit. I didn't know that such a thing exhisted until recently...
It all depends on the dog. A "soft" dog needs soft handling and a "hard" dog will need a little hard handling. It takes a lifetime of learning - and the learning never ends. It seems to me that the best course to follow is that of the least force and preasure necessary... For myself my dogs must really enjoy everything we do together, or else there's just no point. If they don't enjoy it, I won't enjoy it. But that's why I have Malinois - they will litterally go through fire and a glass window pane to please you!!!
Personally I prefer to train obedience, at least, without a lead and just a so-called "half-choke" collar (webbing with a bit of chain) on the dog. I just spend a lot of time and effort making my pups completely "ball crazy" - then it's just a matter of putting the ball in my left jacket pocket and, voila, the dog will follow at heel, all fired up and attentive. And I use the ball for just about everything else. For example, I'll place the ball progressively higher up in a suitable tree, and then get the dog to run up the tree trunk to retrieve the ball. (For those of you who don't believe this, pictures will follow.) Those who see what my dogs do with a ball are absolutely astonished. I also use the ball as an aid in teaching the jumps, tracking, searching the IPO/Schutzhund hides, etc.
The first thing I always do is teach my pups to swim as early as possibly, and for this I also use a ball or stick thrown into the water.
I even find a ball a great help in protection work, as a ball crazy dog that has learned to target and catch a ball in mid-air, no matter how high you can manage to throw it, will also target a protection sleeve/bite suit fast and hard...
It's relatively easy to train most Tervs and Groenies without a collar. I find I can also hold on to any GSD with a pinky - they're just so DEAD. But not so most Malinois. I've got the broken and bent fingers to prove it!!!
But I'm getting a little off the subject here. Like many others I was absolutely against pinch collars, electronic/remote collars and the like, but have now completely changed my mind about these training aids. I now know that - if used correctly - they are far more humane than the old style "Koeler" method of dog training that most handlers/trainers still use; i.e. endles cruel and harmfull janking on a choke chain that will - in the long or even short run - inevitably and most certainly do physical damage to a dog. I still wince every time a see people using these methods - but I keep my mouth shut as these "old-school" trainers will never change. But they will, eventually, hopefully die out.
In the obedience phases of protection training, Ringsport/IPO/Schutzhund, it will be very difficult to gain and train the necessary control into a hard Malinois without resorting to an aid like a pinch collar - that is unless you're prepared to end up with broken fingers, hands and wrists...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 10:11:31 PM by strombouts »
Who made it? When? Where? I really wonder, if you can answer even one of those questions. That study seems to be vanished into the thin air, except on certain websites just as mentioned above. No-one seems to know more about it. Reliability of the study is 0 as long as it is published so that anyone can found it.
Also this conversation seems to consider pretty much how nice pinch is when used the right way according to choke when it's used wrong way. If we turn the picture around? What if pinch is used wrong way and choke right way?
I've used pinch, and it is good gadget when used right. But the use I've seen has been 99% wrong. Webforum doesn't make me believe in the good will of man, when I have seen what I've seen.
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
There are very, very few handlers/trainers who don't - knowingly or unknowingly, deliberately or not - torture their dogs in one way or another.
It has been my unfortunate experience that many people in the dog world are psychological missfits, who shouldn't own a dog - and that's where the problem starts!!!
The dog world, in particular, is plagued by a legion of disgusting, repulsive, OBESE woman, who can?t get or don?t have a boyfriend or husband. So, they get a DOG instead, and the poor DOG has to suffer what the boyfriend/husband would have to suffer - if they could only get one?any volunteers?!
"In my best possible world, NO collars and leads would be used in training.?The strongest leash of all is that invisible leash that connects one heart to another, and it's built of love & trust. The sad reality is that the heart's invisible leash is often broken or has never been built. The prong collar is one of many training equipment choices that can help dogs & owners as they work to build the most important training tool of all - a relationship. It is NOT my first choice, and I prefer a buckle or martingale (limited slip) collar. ?However, the reality is that some people will need to use a prong collar as a way to begin to work with their dogs so that a buckle collar and a loose lead are possible - they should know how & why this collar may be a reasonable choice for some dogs." - SUZANNE CLOTHIER
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 11:50:12 PM by strombouts »
Again, it comes down to knowing how to use it. I have seen people using it wrongly with medical consequences as a result.
At our school (and I think it goes for most of the obedience and agility schools in Belgium) it is forbidden to use this during class. Yentos is also the type of dog that when you take it off (even after wearing it for a long while) all your efforts are in vein because he will react competely different than expected.
He has been raised using a normal collar and it is the best decision that I made.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
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