While we are discussing working Laekenois, perhaps it is also opportune to open threads on working Tervuerens and Groenendaels.
?Working line dog sport activists have traditionally appreciated mainly Malinois variation, and those Tervuerens born from Malinois litters were either killed or were registered as Malinois despite of their long coat. At the end of 1900's people started using Tervuerens, borne out of working Malinois litters, to breeding so that they were further bred with other Tervuerens borne from working Malinois litters. When some of these Tervuerens and their offspring accomplished excellent results in protection championships working line Tervuerens became popular in many countries. Some of these Tervuerens with excellent success could be mentioned here: Bayard who won the Ring championship in France in 1993; Kay von Roten Platte who won the IPO breed championship in Austria in 1996; Jago von der Roten Platte who won the IPO breed championship in Switzerland in 1997; Harley du Colombophile who won the IPO championship in France in 2000, as well as, Lewis who was placed third in the Ring championship in France in 2000.?
To my knowledge - and I stand to be corrected - the two most successful working Tervuerens of the last decade were:
UMLAUT VAN DE DUVETORRE: http://www.tarkatan.com/uma/
and
HARLEY DU COLOMBOPHILE: http://www.chienplus.com/canet_N8.html
The main breeders of working Tervuerens out of Malinois parents ? and, so far as I can ascertain, just about all working Tervuerens are ALL from Malinois ancestry - are the ?van de Duvetorre?, ?van Joefarm? , and ?du Colombophile? kennels. However, a number of others are now attempting to revive the working Tervueren, for an incomplete list of which see below.
A perusal of so-called working line ?Tervuerns? will reveal that they are mostly hardly Tervuerns but, in fact, MALINOIS in TERVUEREN clothing.
In fact, there is hardly a single working Tervueren whose parents were not Malinois, or whose pedigree does not show at least 1/3 or ? Malinois ancestry.
So, these dogs are not really Tervuerens at all ? but Malinois with long or half-long coats.
Perhaps the best starting point for research on this subject would be be:
There are now, however, a number of breeders who are attempting to revive a working line Tervueren, among them is the VAN DE ROBSHOEVE kennel in Holland:
?The primary goal of the kennel is to produce a working line which is not based on beauty but on character,? will to please? and healthy of the Tervuerens, like needed for KNPV, IPO, Schutzhund, NBG, Belgian Ring and Agility programs.
For our breeding program we use the best and most famous Malinois and Tervuerens working lines. I train with my dogs in the KNPV police dog program.?
CONTACT INFORMATION FOR WORKING LINE TERVUEREN BREEDERS
Kennel Van Joefarm Janique (?Nicky?) Van Gele Spietstraat 3, 8890 Moorslede, Belgium Tel./Fax. +32 51 780 438 Mobile +32 75 438 573 or +32 75 408 553 www.joefarm.be e-mail: joefarm@pandora.be
Kennel Van Het Davidshof Hugo Gesquiere Slingerstraat 87, 8930 Menen, Belgium Tel. +32 56 500 009
Kennel Of the Silver Rails Albert Frognet Rue du Petit Champ 4, 6840 Coysteumont, Belgium Tel. +32 49 523 7579 or +32 63 433 471 e-mail: a.frognet@tiscalinet.be
Kennel Chemin du Paradis Pierre-Alain Bron 1209 Geneve tel. +41 22 734 4224 ? Kennel Ch?teau Royal Brigitte L?scher 3293 Dotzigen tel. +41 32 351 4544 ?? ? ?
France
Kennel Le Musher Mario Pessel Lieu dit "La Plaine", 31380 PAULHAC, France Tel. +33 5 6184 3512
Kennel Salte Cabre Jenny Fournel Chemin de la Tuilerie, 34160 Saint Jean de Cornies, France Tel. +33 4 6786 1003 or +33 4 6792 1545 Fax. +33 4 67 92 27 30 e-mail: saltecabre@yahoo.fr
Kennel Domaine de la Rocheliere Stephane Chevalier Chemin de Chelette, 45430 CHECY, France Tel. +33 6 0971 9953
Kennel Le Trieu De Leers Michel Yattara 6, rue Etienne Hennart, 59133 Camphin en Carembault, France Tel. +33 3 2032 5651 Port. +33 6 8741 5442 or +33 6 8793 5650
Kennel La Vallee des Suessiones Michel Desfosses Tel. +33 3 2355 0480
Kennel Du Clos Du Richaumoine Kennel d'Alsace
Kennel Au Domaine de Maryanne Tel. +33 6 8459 5828
Kennel De Contrescarpe Mme Marrec 124 rue ?tienne Pedron Troyes, 10003 France Tel. +33 3 2574 3550 or +33 6 8491 7999
Kennel Du Vieux Marionnier Gilbert Guevel 4, route de Gouvieux, 60740 ST-MAXIMIN, France Tel. +33 3 4425 0185
But I know only very little about Tervuerns and am sure that the more erudite and knowledgeable members of this forum will be able, and only too willing, to contribute further information, and correct any possible errors of fact in this post.
No doubt especially our friends Saskia and Jeanette who, as we all know, are most knowlegeable on this subject in particular (never mind everyting else), will be able to make a major and profound contribution, and correct any errors I am sure to have made.
One looks forward in anticipation to their contributions.
Christian
« Last Edit: January 23, 2005, 03:15:46 PM by strombouts »
WORKING TERVUERENS A perusal of so-called working line ?Tervuerns? will reveal that they are mostly hardly Tervuerns but, in fact, MALINOIS in TERVUEREN clothing.
In fact, there is hardly a single working Tervueren whose parents were not Malinois, or whose pedigree does not show at least 1/3 or ? Malinois ancestry.
So, these dogs are not really Tervuerens at all ? but Malinois with long or half-long coats.
Although I understand what you are saying, I have to disagree with your statement "So, these dogs are not really Tervuerens at all ? but Malinois with long or half-long coats. " ?A "long haired Malinois" is a Tervuren. ?It may be a Terv from Malinois parents, but genetically it is still a Terv. ?Just like a black dog from Terv parents is a Groenendael, not a "black Tervuren". ?Each country handles these dogs differently, but in the "register as they fall" countries the dog would be registered as a Terv, and be eligible to be bred only to other Tervs. ?In the US unfortunately AKC has seperated the varieties into Breeds, so a Terv pup from Malinois has to be registered as a Malinois, and can only be used for breeding with other AKC Malinois. ?UKC however has kept the breed as 1 breed, 4 varieties, so the pup could be registered as a Belgian Shepherd - Tervuren and used for breeding with Tervs, Groens and Mal's (UKC allows inter-variety breeding)
This is my son's 8 month old Terv, out of Malinois, training for French Ring.
He doesn't have a ton of coat yet, but he's definitely a Terv, and will eventually have quite a bit of "furnishings" These pics were taken at 7 months.
I expect him to grow up to look very similar to this dog, Stormy - FR Brevet, AKC-CD, UKC-CDX, UKC-AGII, NA, Sch II
I have to admit to having a preference for this type of coat in the Tervs, vs the really heavy coat you see in many of the show dogs. ?This is enough hair the dog is obviously a long haired dog, but not so much they loose all of their "wash and wear" traits. ?A quick brushing of the furnishings (hair around neck, back of legs, tail) and you are basically done, the body hair is a couple inches long, but still short enough that it doesn't take much more care than a Malinois. ?And they seem to shed less :-) ?I think because the longer hair comes loose but stays on the dog vs falling out on the floor.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2005, 12:09:15 AM by Raven »
Malndobe thank you for explaning the way the registration works and why a Terv. born in a mallinois litter is a Terv. All longhaired BSD's are recesives. Modifying genes take care of the actuall hair lenght. (maybe Saskia can explain this). The current working Terv is different from the show Terv like the working mallinois is different from the show mallinois. Tervs are allso born in showbred mals every now and then, they look more like the Tervs we all know. Thanks to a couple off mallinois breeders like van de Duvetorre, Kukay's, Halusetha's the Colombophile and more we now have Tervs with real strong working pedigrees. There have been dogs like Kay van der Rotenplatte, Hilou von Siefelerberg, Zizou (Robbie) van Joefarm,Bayard, Fichi von Kirchfof, Turco van de Duvetorre and many more who proved Tervs born out of Mals are capeble of working in different types off sports. As more will be born, more will be seen.
Jeannet
« Last Edit: January 19, 2005, 12:29:30 AM by jeannette »
Malndobe thank you for explaning the way the registration works and why a Terv. born in a mallinois litter is a Terv. All longhaired BSD's are recesives. Modifying genes take care of the actuall hair lenght. (maybe Saskia can explain this).
GOD forbid! These so-called working Tervueren are just defective Malinois. (Defective in the sense that their coats are mostly neither short, nor long, but in-between, i.e. defective and simply WRONG.)
?Modifying genes [and how do you propose to do this exactly?!] takes care of the actual hair length. (Maybe Saskia can explain this.)? Yes, come on Saskia, please explain all this to us? How do you make a "TERVUEREN" out of a MALINOIS? How do you make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?
Lets just get a few things absolutely straight here: there is NO SUCH THING as a real, purebred working Tervueren left alive today. The working Tervueren were, regrettably, killed off long ago when the criminal show dog breeders (people with the same mindset you have) introduced the Collie into the Tervueren and Groenendael, in order to purportedly ?improve the coat?. Now that?s a really good reason for using a rubbish dog from the British Isles to b*stardise or BSD, isn?t it?! Because there are people who find the short-haired Malinois ugly (never mind the poor Laekenois) ? but would still like to think and pretend that the have a real, beautiful, long-haired ?working Tervueren? - there is still, regrettably, a market for these abberations, i.e. imperfect ?Malinois?/fake ?Tervuerens?, with mostly half-long coats.
I have friends who are Malinois breeders who, now and then, have a recessive ?Tervueren? in their litters, which they let live and sell to people like you. If I should ever have one of these aberrations in one of my litters, I think I would have to cull it.
A BLACK or BRINDEL "Malinois" I will welcome...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2005, 10:54:28 AM by strombouts »
Seems that you forget the Belgium shepert dog is stil one breed. Looks like you are the one having problems with Tervueren, Groenendael and Leakinois, I on the other hand like them all.
I'm glad there more "stupid" people like me arround who just love the breed.
Did you know that ?one off the first registrated ??Malinois name "Diane" is in fact a half Laekenois because the father is a Laekenois his name is "Vos 1". The pedigree is from around 1896 / 97.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2005, 02:52:38 AM by Bjorn »
Being, among other things, an artist & graphic designer, I rate this web site 10/10 for design and content. It is really beautifully done and a real pleasure to visit. Highly recommended!!!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2005, 06:29:01 PM by strombouts »
I were on this site and many others but the name off my dog isn't on it. His name was "Gento-Jari van het Wildertsehof". He made his IPO 3 with 285 out off 300. He made 2 trails. For me he was a great-dog. I think he was a bit better than my Malinois. Because the drive he had. I could train with him everyday. Obedience and tracking. He was a little hard to the handler. When you corect him he said at a point now it is enough and he bit me in the jacked. That kind off tervueren I would like too see and offcourse a bit more secure in defence. But i think that allso has to do with building up a dog. Jari was a son from Halusetha's Uncle Sam and a grandson from a wellknown Malinois Nero vom Haus-Antverpa. On Mothers-side he was a grandson from Ares-Charlie von der Alten-Hanssestadt. He looked like a tervueren but his skull was a bit width. This dog "Nimba du Clos de MacKenzie"he looks a bit like Jari but i don't know how he works. But this Renzo that I menchiond before I liked him. Because he had persevironce, tanasity, curedge. And that you can not learn a dog. Every dog you can train for IPO, ring or something else. But not every dog gets his exam in IPO, ring or KNPV. And those dogs that have done an exam are not good enough for doing a trail. Than i come back what i have written before. When there is a tervueren on a nationale championship he can not be "bad". Or that is in ring (belgium or frenche) or in IPO or KNPV. This dog made his quali. He proved him self allready. But iff there is a dog wich have IPO 3 and never compete and somebody say's to me he is good, but were is this dog than! I gave my complements to the breeders (not the breeders that do this for money or mass production) to put the tervueren back were it was for let say 50 years ago.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2005, 11:25:40 PM by Bjorn »
Here in primary school and secondary school people are taught respect for other people and other people's opinion. I have been in contact with people from all over the world, both private and official bodies. Always have I been treated and have I treated other people with respect although out opinions were not always the same. Somehow I have the feeling that you were absent at school when they were handling the subject of respect towards other people and there opinion. The only thing you can do is insult, start a fight, piss people off and pretend you know everything. And we know that you don't because otherwise you wouldn't have insulted Jeanette and then copy her website.
I like dogs with long hair and without a black head and I am entitled to this but this doesn't mean that I dislike Malinois, Groendael and Laekenois or any other breed that doesn't meet those criteria. If one day I encounter a short/whired haired dog that catches my eye and gives me the same feeling as a Terv, then I will not hesitate and I will buy that dog no matter the hair length and structure or whether or not the dog is brindled/grey/black or pink for that matter. I have waited 15 years to get my Terv and I haven't regretted it one day. Besides who are you to judge if people should own a dog or not (regardless the breed) the only thing people with expertise can do is try to help them.
I was really shocked and with me probably a lot of other members with your last statement (from some people I know it). Anybody who kills a puppy just because of hair length is not of sound mind and through my job I know now places where those people can have room and board and nice long chats on the couch with people in long white coats.
Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that you have a different opinion than me and in the beginning I found it rather nice to discuss with you but you have insulted myself and other people so much over these past weeks that I just needed to write this post.
If you were the only member on this forum I wouldn't even bother to provide an explanation on modifying genes but since the other people on the forum are nice people treating others with respect I will write what I know (it may not be everything there is to know on the subject and very extensive but I think I have a bit of knowledge in this area as I have a Masters degree with distinction in Biochemistry and Physiology):
You have 2 types of modifying genes, majoring and minoring genes. Majoring genes will enhance expression of other genes while minoring genes do just the opposite.
It doesn't only have an effect on coat length but also coat color and a lot of other things.
It is a bit like mathematics: without interference 4 + 4 is 8. When you have majoring genes the sum will be 10 while with minoring genes it will be 6.
The most obvious is it in color. Majoring genes will give really red dogs, minoring genes will give sable dogs (not grey because that is another gene)
Hope it is a bit clear.
Also you were so nice to provide a long list of Terv breeders, whether copied from other sites or not.
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
It must require a real effort to consistently behave like an idiot, but some people appear to be completely dedicated to and truly adept at the task. ?
One can also always count on some people falling right into any trap you lay for them. By now one would have thought that others on this forum would know when I am saying things "tongue in cheek", and am deliberately provoking them to get a reaction. I?m surprised that no one has been provoked to jump down my throat yet for my remark about fat ladies. ?
Evidently, they are enamoured with the sound of their own voices. The same people continuously insult our intelligence by mistakenly thinking that they are the only one?s who know anything and have something relevant to say. They are obviously completely intolerant of diverging views. ?
It?s also always the same two self-appointed "nice" people endlessly whining and whinging, getting all upset, and their knickers in a knot about nothing. Some people just don't have anything better to do with their time. ?
The above post, once again, just goes to confirm this.
Would I have started the subject of WORKING TERVUEREN if I didn't like them!? ?
The explantion of the genetics involved is completely unintelligible. But this is a very complicated subject and I know very little about genetics. So that's not your fault, but mine. Now, here's your chance to call me an idiot for not understanding your explanation.?Also, this really all only seems to be relevant regarding colour and length of coat. This is exactly where the whole decline of the Tervueren and Groenendael as working dogs began, because the show dog breeders selected for coat and colour, completely disregarding working ability. Where does genetics come in when you are aiming to breed dogs with superior working ability, stable character and temperament, etc. Most of the top breeders of working dogs know little or nothing about genetics - and yet they succeed, where those who know much about genetics seem to mostly fail
It?s absolutely not my aim to make a habit of always disagreeing with certain people. In fact I actually tend to agree with these two on most things. In particular I am in complete agreement with Saskia regarding the ridiculous provisions regarding colour in the official FCI breed standard. As far as this very important subject is concerned she presents an intelligent argument that no one who is objective can disagree with?
There is, regretably, also little evidence of a sense of humour anywhere here. ?
Get a life for DOG's sake!!! ?
Thank goodness there are others on this forum who are level-headed and sensible, especially the few Americans and Canadians. They bring an air of normalcy and their posts are always informative and a pleasure to read, and they really do know something about dogs.
PS. Thank you, though, for the additional long list of breeders. It is most commendable of you to go to so much time and trouble for us. It must have taken more than two weeks work to compile the list from sources on the net and elsewhere. ?
As it seems we are all now looking to get a ?real? working ?Tervueren?, we now at least have somewhere to start from. ?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 01:16:27 AM by strombouts »
Tervueren from Dusty and G'Bang. Could be interesting for breeders. Dusty du Clos de Savoie X Candy de la Source Bien Aimee Houka de la Source Bien Aimee (Female)
Dusty du Clos Savoie X Darling de la Perle de Ruisseau Iyankee du Domaine de Titisee (Male)
Dusty du Clos de Savoie X Java de Chantepierre Nox des Garrigues de la Madeleine (Male) Ninia " " (female)
Dusty du Clos Savoie X Iphigenie du Colombophile Harley du Colombophile
G'Bang de la Virginie X Eden de la Virginie Ivan de la Virginie (Male)
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