I don't get what this thread, started by St Romboud, is about, the whole thread isn't logic so I think I missed out something...
But this thread fits for Fanfan. So I thought...let's put him in because nature can be excellent.
I like to add Fanfan to this thread for he makes it slightly complicated: a mix of Tervuren, Malinois and Groenendaler in his bloodline and still a valid Tervuren in look and his work is outstanding.
You have 2 types of modifying genes, majoring and minoring genes. ?Majoring genes will enhance expression of other genes while minoring genes do just the opposite. ? ? It doesn't only have an effect on coat length but also coat color and a lot of other things. ? It is a bit like mathematics: ?without interference 4 + 4 is 8. ?When you have majoring genes the sum will be 10 while with minoring genes it will be 6. ? ? The most obvious is it in color. ?Majoring genes will give really red dogs, minoring genes will give sable dogs
First time someone able to explain it wonderful plain.
Now I have a question: when you cross sable / dark Malinois with another sable / dark Malinois is it logic to say the pups all must have minoring genes or does the laws of Mendell count to make it complicated.
let's start my list of questions I have in mind simple and I only focus color at the moment:
I have two sisters (Eon and Eppo -pictures can be found on my site-). Eon is very sable/dark and Eppo is getting deep red with some dark hair. When I take it plain simple: Eon has minoring genes and Eppo has majoring genes. 1/ Can I expect sable/dark dogs when I mix Eon with another dark (almost black) dog from the same bloodline ? 2/ Can I expect sable dogs and red dogs when I mix Eppo with the same dark dog ??
((To the board: I do not plan this breeding...it's just hypothetical to get insight))
"I don't get what this thread, started by St Romboud, is about, the whole thread isn't logic so I think I missed out something... " TEUS
Hi Teus
I think we are getting just a little sidetracked here. This thread is supposed to be about WORKING TERVUERENS. A discussion of Colour & Coat Genetics belongs elsewhere, and we need to start a new thread specifically for the discussion of this subject. Colour and coat genetics are no at all relevant to the breeding of a working Tervueren.
However, to get us started, below are links to most of the web pages that contain relevant information:
Les couleurs du Berger belge - Histoire et g?n?tique by Jean-Marie Vanbutsele This book is essential reading, but is so far only available in French. http://www.belgiandogs.org/gencouleur.htm
BSD Coat Genetics by Saskia Vermeylen (Yes, that?s our Saskia. Saskia really know her stuff when it comes to genetics and this is a really excellent article that even I can follow and understand): http://www.belgiansworld.com/belgians_about_coatgenetics.htm
No less an authority than Jean-Marie Vanbutsele states that:
?[The] Belgian Shepherd, before all color consideration[s], is or should be a shepherd dog with all that that means [implies], such as construction type, about aspect and character [I think he means character and temperament]. All this seems to me, more important than eliminating certain colors, which historically and genetically make up the color parameters of the Belgian Shepherd.? Jean-Marie Vanbutsele.
I assume that Raven and Hunden will give us the rules where to put what topics, so I don't think we have to worry about that, or behave like emperor Nero watching little people burning high up fom the pole.
Anyway, Teus, most of the malinoisbased tervs born red. I didn't see the pedigrees of your dogs but overall colourgenetics goes like:
gray & gray=always gray red with gray ancestors (heterozygote red)& gray=both red and gray genetically homozygote red & gray=all red, but all carries gray
The colour and amount of black charbonnage and mask is more complex, so are white markings. GSD-colour is not racetypical.
I have seen black, GSD-coloured, blue and red malinois, and black, red, isabella, gray and sable tervs. Of course black terv was registerated as gro, but she has terv-parents (dna-test done) All of these dogs have worked just fine, but the creators of our race have decided the actual colours and variations, of which we, who live now have created more variations. Shit happens.
J
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 04:34:19 PM by Jenni »
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
I think we are getting just a little sidetracked here. This thread is supposed to be about WORKING TERVUERENS
...ah, then you have to agree Fanfan is posted at the perfect thread. For Fanfan is a working Tervuren... and working he does !!
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However, to get us started, below are links to most of the web pages that contain relevant information:
Question to Christian: you want to lecture us ?? I don't see what I have to learn from your 'google time'. However nice of you to spent your time googling for us and share your list here, but I don't get at all what you want us to do for none on board -this thread- did ask for. Beside that: do we have to read all the links, learn by heart and wait for your test or something? I hope I am not rude, but I think this is a forum, no open university.
I find it fair that if you have something to say at any forum: just say so without copy and paste as if you have no words yourselves.
gray & gray=always gray red with gray ancestors (heterozygote red)& gray=both red and gray genetically homozygote red & gray=all red, but all carries gray
The colour and amount of black charbonnage and mask is more complex, so are white markings. GSD-colour is not racetypical.
J
Jenni, thanks for your answer.
I didn't have a Terv in mind but a Malinois and was just trying to get the idea of the majoring and minoring genes. As you state some things are more complex and I am curious if and how those complexer systems behave in some laws. I have learned to see the dogs myself and watch what they all produce and follow the dogs and not only the paperwork. Now when I learn how littermates produce different , which of course is logic, genetically speeking, I am curious to the complexer stuff.
To be honest, here's the reason: I just came to learn (own experience) black Malinois are more sensitive than red Malinois (littermates), which does affect the training and final behavior. Some typical character and temperament seems to be linked to coat colour. More people does seek for dark Malinois and I see some shift happening in temperament of Malinois at the moment --nothing special for typical of the dynamic world--. However, my job is to select, raise and train dogs for whatever working homes and am always in need for pups with outstanding quality and typical character, thus I follow the dynamic pulse of the world close.
Hello, that's my first time in the forum, and I have to concordate with St. Rombouts.
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imperfect “Malinois”/fake “Tervuerens”, with mostly half-long coats.
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a half-long coats it's not a Tervueren. If you see the Standard od Belgium Shepperd yo will see that the Tervueren have a long red (some times gris) coat and the malinois have a short red coat. the half-long coat its proibid at the standard. JUST ITS NOT A BELGIAN SHEPERD
We make the distinction between half-long and long coat but at least here in Belgium a hair is considered to be long when the length of the hair is at least 5 cm (source is the course for instructor and course show judge).
When keeping this in mind, the,what we call, half-long coated BSD is per definition a Tervueren and are perfectly allowed although it is not what we have in mind when we talk about long-haired dogs.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Actually one decoy yesterday looked at Nelli doing obedience and then my little twiggylegged beast tried to chase him away, and after noticing I didn't care, Nelli jumped on his arms.
He was certain that Nelli has workingline background. I have to say that Nelli works just fine on track and ob, but you can never mix that princess to a workingline based terv.
Between all the laughing, I have to say, I was also a bit proud. These stingnoses still can work. At least enough to fool GSD-decoys...
J
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Coffee and love are something you just can't warm up again.
Hmmm... here in Sweden working Tervuerens are Tervs that has ancestors who has proven themselves in working trials for generations.
They have never been "ugly" though, but they've most often has had naturally less coat than the "show-line". The coat of our working Tervs has been more suitable, because it doesn't slow them down or make them too tired too fast, and they can cope with heat better.
A couple of years ago the "new" workingline was introduced to Sweden, the Tervs that come from Malinois litters. They do not even look like Tervs, most of the times. Everyone buys the crap that THIS IS REAL workinglines... no! That's not the case in my eyes. Sure, it's probably a good idea to mate them so that new blood can be used into Tervueren but... people should not get blinded and too much impressed by the history, tervueren with malinois parents for example.
There are perfectly workable "real" (you know what I mean) Tervuerens in the world, one just has to put an effort into finding them and cherish their lines.
Best regards, Kattis
Here's an example of how the "old working Tervueren" from Sweden looks like.
I personnally evaluate the variety of a belgian according to his genotype and phenotype...
If the dog looks almost like a terv but is just a fuzzy malinois, this dog breed to a tervueren he will give short coated dogs! if he is a tervueren you will get very long and dense coat on every pups !!!
of course you can't always apply this test but in most cases you know just looking at him....
his coat is not that long but breed to tervueren and groenendael bitches, he never gave me a short coated dog !!!!
is he a malinois or a tervueren
you can't evaluate a dog only according to his look !!! his genetic is what make him breath not his look!? you have to consider both....? ?in my opinion of course
by the way, I consider myself as a working dog breeder first ! who try to have dogs with correct structure? ? ? www.lescaut.com? ?
the long haired litter I plan for the next fall? (Phudjie de Lescaut? X Je Suis Escaut de Lescaut) will give the 8th generation of pups born here !? ?and will be done to produce working dogs for IPO, SchH & police work.
I also plan a litter who should interest working tervuerens breeders
the sire is a Umlaut Van de Duvetorre brother. I did breed this dog to a malinos female and got several tervuerens.? ?then, for this time since I will breed to a tervueren female from malinois working background I expect most of the pups to be terv....
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