Does anybody know iff there are Des Deux Pottois dogs left Besides Utamarou and Ursula,Utie? Does anybody know Xeres des Deux Pottois (Fr.ring 3 Does anybody know Xavier des Deux pottois (Mondio ring 3)? I want some info about these dogs.
I own a dog from deux Pottois. Rytmo des Deux Pottois ("Raptor") - FRIII, '96 NARA FRIII Champion, OFA Good, eyes normal He's pushing 12 years old now, but still doing good. Super dog, very stable, loves people, sleeps on my sons bed at night, awesome grips. In his younger days was a very good working dog. There has to be younger 2P dogs out there, since I know Luc was breeding for a few more years after Raptor was born.
Does anybody know iff there are Des Deux Pottois dogs left Besides Utamarou and Ursula,Utie? Does anybody know Xeres des Deux Pottois (Fr.ring 3 Does anybody know Xavier des Deux pottois (Mondio ring 3)? I want some info about these dogs.
Dear Bjorn
I have a little story that might be of some interest to all of us. It?s the story of LOVELEY DES DEUX POTTOIS who ? through no fault of her own or her breeder and owner ? became LANDY DES DEUX POTTOIS:
In 1987 a bitch puppy, LOVELEY DES DEUX POTTOIS (ALSH 38501) (G?BIBBER [ALSH 34996 X FUDJY DES DEUX POTTOIS [LOSH 466744]) was imported into South Africa. When the pup?s ST HUBERTIS/FCI ALSH reg. certificate was submitted to our national kennel club they refused to register the pup because the ?Inschrijvingsbewijs/Certificat d?inscription? was blank on G?BIBBER?S side. At the time our kennel club was an associate FCI member. Since then they have become a full member. The FCI?s Articles of Association state that all member countries are bound to accept one another?s registration papers. However, this does not always happen in practice, as many a person who has imported a BSD to North America, South Africa, etc. has learned to their cost.
After a drawn our correspondence between our breed club and the secretaries of St. Hubertus and our kennel club, the KUSA (Kennel Union of Souther Africa), no solution could be found and our kennel club remained steadfast in their refusal to register the dog.
The poor importer/owner of the dog, who had worked her fingers to the bone to make enough money to be able to import this dog with the aim of improving the Malinois in South Africa then, in desperation, wrote to Luc Vansteenbrugge of the des deux Pottois kennel asking if he could give her the reg. certificate of a pup from another litter that had died and which had no blank spaces on the certificate. Luc was happy to oblige. And that?s how LOVELEY DES DEUX POTTOIS became LANDY DES DEUX POTTOIS, and why now just about every single Malinois in South Africa has ?false? reg. papers.
In those days we unfortunately didn?t have the internet to check the ST HUBERTS and FCI web sites to read the Rules & Regulations for ourselves. If we had we would have known that our kennel club was breaking the FCI's purported aims and Articles of Association which state:
On the opening page of the FCI?s web site:
?The F?d?ration Cynologique Internationale is the World Canine Organisation. It includes 80 members and contract partners (one member per country) that each issue their own pedigrees and train their own judges. The FCI makes sure that the pedigrees and judges are mutually recognized by all the FCI members.?
The above, from our sad experience, it a blatant lie!!! Furthermore, their Articles of Association clearly state the following:
?Articles of Association
I. CONSTITUTION AND AIMS
The F.C.I. shall, in particular, by issuing special regulations, take care of : a) ? ? ?mutual recognition of stud books and pedigrees, b) the mutual recognition of kennel names and the establishment of international register of kennel names and judges, c) the promoting of scientific research, which is of fundamental importance in cynology, and ?the free exchange of scientific information between member countries; the observance of ?the breed standards as established by the countries of origin or countries of patronage ?of ?the respective breeds. Those standards must be recognized ?by the other countries as far as ?they are not in contradiction with the national laws of those countries. d) the standardization - to all possible extent - of the national regulations by issuing ?regulations for international championship shows and working championship and by ?keeping a list of dogs qualified to take part in such championships; seeking to maintain high ?standard ?of judges appointed for ?international shows ?and working ?trials; supporting certain member countries, if necessary, in conjuction with other international organizations, by providing professional informations and necessary cynological experts. e) defining - ?after previous ?approval by ?the representative of ?the breed's country of origin or country of patronage - and publishing the characteristics of each breed. In any case, the standard of the new ?breed or any change in an existing standard ?will not ?be internationally acknowledged, however, unless the F.C.I.'s commission of standards and in cases of a new ?breed also the scientific commission have examined them and stated their opinion on the subject concerned. f) the mutual recognition of the penalties and procedure established by ?member countries.?
http://www.fci.be/reglements.asp?lang=en&sel=5 In view of the above the Secretary of St. Hubertus should have informed our kennel club that they were, under the FCI's ?Articles of Association?, obliged to register a dog with an ALSH registration certificate, whether with blank spaces or not, and whether they liked it or not as they had willingly become associate members of the FCI, thereby agreeing to abide by the rules.
Furthermore, the ancestry of G?BIBBER is well known. It is only because he was a dog originating from a so-called ?dissident? organisation, namely the NVBK, that St. Hubertus thinks it proper to issue a pedigree with blank spaces. They now even register dogs of completely unknown origin and give them a so-called RISH registration certificate. I, for one, am all for registering such dogs, but the way they go about it is simply immoral and unacceptable.
As far as des deux Pottois dogs is concerned, I wouldn?t stare myself blind on a kennel name. This kennel was the St. Hubertus working Malinois ?factory? of the time. If you are breeding 24+ litters a year you can?t help but produce a handful of good dogs! The same applies to kennels like VAN JOEFARM and VAN DE DUVETORRE today.
If you breed only 3 ? 6 litters a year and achieve superior results I would think that you can claim to know what you are doing.
If I were so fortunate as to live in Europe, instead of the arse end of Africa, the dogs I would be looking for would be from the late Regis Lebon?s DU BOSCAILLE kennel, of which there are still a few around. I would especially look for GAILLARD DU BOSCAILLEin the pedigree. I would also still like to have dogs like G?BIBBER and CLIP not too far back in the pedigree.
I found a nice du Boscaille bitch advertised on the net that I would have bought immediately if I had the money and the dog was still available However, I discovered that the dog had already been bought by my friend Geert Verlinden, who knows a good dog when he sees one!
I would be interested to hear what members of the forum think of all this and whether there is still anyone out there who, after reading this story, still thinks that things are just fine the way they are and that it isn?t ST. HUBERTS/RAAD VAN BEEHEER/FCI who are to blame for this appalling mess?
It is high time that they were made accountable, brought to book, and have their wings clipped!
Christian
« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 11:33:57 PM by strombouts »
Your friend Geert Verlinden, is one off my friends. I trained with him last week 3 times. I only was interesting in these dogs because i want to help Geert and my self for good dogs. And then i can deside to use the dog or not. For me the dog must have something and iff he doesn't show me that he is gone. Some one said to me i quote:"you can not win the tour the france on a carrier cycle". He looks for dogs that have des 2 Pottois in there pedigree. I know this problem with G'Bibber and allso with G'vitou. Both are brothers or half brothers. And i know that G'Bibber has a pink pedigree and that he is from NVBK. I know that he became a pink pedigree because he made 2 shows where he became 2 sg under 2 different judges. I know allso that G'Vitou gives weak ears through. I have spoken to wellknown people in germany that are famous with G'Bibber and they said that some litters from G'bibber were made put to sleep because they didn't have any muscles on there hips. I know allso that Elgos was bred in France due tue the problem while he is actualy a son or a Grandson from G'Bibber. But the fact is most "des Deux pottois"dogs that i have seen a really good and have a good bite. Now not many bloodlines have that. Du Boscaille is known because these dogs are big and sharp(you know what i mean!) not full bite and sometimes a bit nervues. But that is oke iff you like that. I think this combenation is succesfull with Utamarou and Yala this female that you are talking about, while Luc made some same combenations. And please stay too the subject. Do you know any "des Deux Pottois" dogs?
Please understand that I don?t have the privilege of firsthand knowledge of these dogs, because of where I have lived most of my life. I nevertheless try to gain as much knowledge as possible.
So I am especially interested to learn from people like you who train and work with these dogs ?in the flesh?. Believe me I envy you and hope that one day I may still have the opportunity to make a trip to Europe to see things for myself.
I have already had some really sage advice from Geert and very much appreciate your informed comments on the subject.
The DES DEUX POTTOIS topic is a ?crossover? one that, on account of the ?hanky panky? with reg. papers that has always gone on, is a complicated one because, unless you are/were an insider when Luc Vansteenbrugge and Regis Lebon were breeding, you won?t have the inside knowledge as to a particular dog?s real ancestry. That is unless you know someone who can tell you and you believe you can trust that they are telling the truth, and not just making up stories. So it is all the more interesting to hear these claims that ELGOS is either a son or grandson of G?BIBBER.
I also don?t like soft ears, curly tails, too much white on the chest, and a Malinois that looks like it had a Great Dane for a great-grandfather?
On pictures I have seen it sometimes looks as if OTHAR DE LA NOAILLERIE had one soft ear?
It looks like we are becoming friends now and I hope you understand my position regarding the whole business with reg. papers, and why I think it is sometimes better to keep certain things to oneself?.
Thanks for your insight into these problems. This is a very interesting topic.
Regards
Christian
PS. LOVELY DES DEUX POTTOIS was a great dog and did much to improve the breed in South Africa ? false reg. papers and all.
Othar de la Noaillerie didn't have a bad ear. I have him on video were he was second on Championat de France behind his son Tino de la Virginie. The same goes for Klemm and Clip vom Roten Falken good ears but due too training and to much pulling on the ear to force a sit or down or apport. Than such things happen. But Othar didn't have bad ears. You can see this back at the picture from Ivan Des Deux pottois. He is a son from G'Vitou and he has one bad ear. It is wonderfull to see that this isn't done due to training because this dog had it one earlier pictures. Allso this Xeres i have seen him on the DVD from Championat de France 2004. Not a bad dog but on the pictures i couldn't see iff he had good ears. But on the DVD he had bad ears. I don't know iff this comes due too training or that he is an G'Vitou grandson. His brother Xavier has good ears. When you have once weak ears in your bloodlines it taks severall years too breed it out. That's why I'am allso looking too France because most off there Malinois look like Malinois. And not what you sometimes see in Holland. FCI malinois look like little horses, that for me isn't malinois. But what i have said about Des 2 Pottois is a gut feeling and good looking and hearing. I had the honnour to let Utamarou bite on the sleeve and work with him. That was for me a little dream come true not only because me and my girlfriend have a son from him but because he is a great dog. Not many dogs can make results like he did in the past. And selected 12 times i believe now 13 times for a World-Championship IPO. But with Des Deux Pottois is like this you like the dogs or you don't, that goes for other dogs too. I have a Rodin du Calvaire aux Acacias son. His mother comes out off old "Des deux Pottois" bloodlines. And that was for me one off the things that i wanted from this female a puppy and allso because i saw Rodin in action. There was from an other female allso puppies but i didn't like the bloodlines. But back too this topic I look around for these dogs. And I know what bloodline are good from "Des Deux pottois" or not. I know for one thing that Kolos des 2 p. did gave good puppies too. For example Arek von der Wautz.
I don't think so. I know his sister and she isn't my taste. I have seen a dog on the DVD from Championat de France. His name is Okynn du Clos des Sublieres. Powerfull build dog. Lots off drive and "good"agression. The father is Heder de Mallassagne and the parents from Heder are both Des Deux Pottois. I thought on mothers side half the pedigree is des Deux pottois. I Liked this dog. He was fast on the attacks. Good bites. Good basket garding. He was one off the dogs with the tail high and agressive garding. This exercise there you can see iff the dog is secure from his self or not. I think this dog isn't bad. The problem with G'bibber blood is, is that many descendant are good bitters but laize in the obedience, here and there a exeption. I think iff you use sudge a dog you must have a female that must have too much drive in everything.
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