a'tim question for raven

[chick]

I have found various info concerning a'tims background, raven is Rakky's dam Osiris parents Jim & Kim??? or Urpauwer and Quadiza?

Thank you for any info

[Raven]

Hi!

I think we worked on A´Tim so much that it is pointless of going on with debates about him. All I can do is suggest that you contact Martine Loots and ask away. She and her husband own A´Tim (but I think they were not the first owner, dunno, anyway they trained the dog to be what he is).

Here is link to their contact page:
http://home.scarlet.be/workingmalinois2/contact.htm

Here are two links to old debates (I guess many of us that were in it grew up a little too.    ):
http://forum.belgiansworld.com/index.php/topic,92.0.html
http://forum.belgiansworld.com/index.php/topic,32.0.html

So if you didn´t go through all those pages go there read it through than try to contact Martine and ask away, or you can pick someone who posted there.

Raven

[chick]

Thankl you Raven, yes they were NOT the first owners of A'Tim.

I just sent out an email to them BUT yesterday I sent an email to 'dovrefjeld kennels' and have received a reply, which doesn't answer my question. See below:

Hi Again ,
I didn't had much time yesterday , so I'm back.
I presume you're from the US ?
Like most of the dog people , it seems you're looking for names . One should realize that each generation we "loose" 50% of the ancestors' genes .
A pup gets 50% of the his genes from the dam and the other 50% from the sire from the grandparents they get only 25% and so on .
4 generations back : leaves only 6,125% .
Lets look at the "character" or call it "personality" or more specific "the Mind" .
" That is the result of the interaction of the environment with the subject" . Compare it with a PC :
- the hard is the genetic make up
- the soft (program) is the environment : starts at the breeder's (environment rich or poor in stimuli)
                                                            owner/handler : knowledge , experience
                                                            decoy : knowledge /experience
The most powerful PC with an erroneous program will never function .
What I try to say is that the program is more important , even when one can not go "around" the genetics.

Of course if the parents have INATED aptitudes they MIGHT pass it on , but you'll never get the handler/trainer + decoy on top.

One buys a PUP not it's parents .
That's why I work my pups every day and pass them in a final test around 9 weeks of age : those who fail , are out .

Andre

as you can see Raven, I did not get a straight answer so I'll wait for Martine to answer what she has on her papers for A'tim's dam's parents.

I am making a chart and just want to insure I have correct information (since I found 2 sets of info concerning Osiris parents)

[Jenni]

I think and believe that the info at working-dog.eu is correct. Osiris has LOSH-number 646751 and M'Kim and Jim both have FCI-numbers. Quadiza and Urpauwer are NVBK, so I'd go for these two.

It is nice to know that a breeder can add something genetic to a puppy. And if we don't need genetics, we don't need pedigrees.

By the way, I have already 5 different pedigrees for Elgos and two different birthyears.  And of course only 3 real names.

So I just left his parents unknown in my database   

J

[chick]

Thanks raven. I've got too much time on my hands I guess?

This is so confusing. I personally don't care who is registered with what, all I want is to make my pedigree 'chart' correct, or as correct as possible. It's this damn perfectionism I have with making the chart look correct. My husband says I'm obsessive.

I tend to agree with your as far as sticking with the NVBK line side... but what's confusing me is LOSH, ALSH and finding info saying  they are both NVBK & LOSH, which put them registered in 2 different separate arenas, right?

The info I found on A'tim's father Rakky states Rackky is:

NG/NVBK LOSH 713645 <--- so here we have LOSH
dob: 1993

OK then I find one of Rakky's grandfather's is:

Sire: Basko van de Savannehof
NHSB 1323640 <--- here we have NHSB

as Basko's sire was LOSH too:

Sire: Datilo
LOSH 434588
dob: 11/20/1979

and the dam was:

Dam: Roza
NHSB 959814
[Dhr. A.M. Robbescheuten]

so we start to break off the NVBK line there, oh it's still mixed in there but non-the-less others are there.

So if Osiris is correctly listed as NVBK/LOSH 646751 HD, this is where my confusion enters because I am finding 2 Osiris, (both with different parents) one listed as NVBK/LOSH number, and the other with just NVBK and NO NUMBER following.


I am trying to chart 10 generations and have allot of missing info that must be out there somewhere, or listed somewhere but I've yet to find it, and I am into every database on the net cross referencing parents, siblings, and other pedigree listings.

Oh well!

[Jenni]

LOSH-Saint Hubert (Belgian kennelclub register to dogs with full FCI pedigree)
ALSH-Saint Hubert for dogs that have unknown parents in 3 generation
RISH-Saint Hubert for dogs without know parents (taken into breed )
NHSB-Dutch FCI registry
NVBK- Belgian non-FCIU registry
KNPV-no registry at all, but a club

J

[MelissaCato]

Chick, do you have a dog out of A'Tim ? Just wondering.

[chick]

Thanks Jenni for that info. I am trying to learn and only speak English, and it's seems allot of info is not in English.

Yes Melissa, I have 2 of A'Tims grandchildren, (a male & female) via A'tim's daughter, Hilde (Toos) father is Eros (Eqo) son of V'Racky and greatgrandson of Dick II.

also Hilde just gave birth today to her 3rd planned litter.