Ok, there is no point of making this thread show vs. work kind of thread since majority of show people have no problem with bitework sports. Just to throw in example: Mondioring in Sweden is NOT accepted by SKK (Swedish kennel klub) but it is supported by Afbv (Swedish belgian shepherd club) although majority of members are show people.
Me and hunden have met our share of idiot´s (some are even our friends) on both sides but most of the time we just looked at eachother and smiled because it is pointless to get into a debate to which there is no end.
Banning any dog sport would be the most idiotic thing to do. Shit happens in any sport but what happened this time shouldn´t happen. Amature decoys who cannot catch dogs on both sides had no place there or to put it another way for the highest level of competition there should be highest level decoys. I hope there will be legal actions because of the future of this sport not just to see one organization being grilled.
Raven
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Do not condemn the judgment of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong. ~Dandemis
Quite honestly, it seems like the worlds has had its share of controversy in the past few years. There is always things like the judge having the decoys go through the motions in a sport like Sch, as it is all about control.
I don't want to see anyone penalized, as we were not on the field that day catching the dogs, and we do not know what the instructions of the judge were to the decoys. I am quite sure that they feel like crap right now, no matter what anyone thinks.
As far as show vs working, try to remember that I am here in the states, where what they are doing to the Mals and Groens ect is an abomination. AKC now has a working dog program (basically Sch) and the breed clubs have to sign up to participate. The Malinois club hasn't signed up yet as far as I know.
Anyways, ya got it a lot better over there than you'll ever know.
Really Jeff? An abomination? What exactly do you mean? Because the last time I looked:
American won the Worlds (regardless of where he was born...) America took 3rd for the team with not one team member failing. All dogs but one was bred in America (unlike other breed clubs) All dogs but 1 were HOT.
To me that says we are doing alot! Our breeding program is one of the best in the world and we are getting better. Despite 95% of training and breeding going on 1000's of miles away from us. Jeff the only way they have it better is that they all live in a area the size of the Mid-East Region! Could you imagine the power we would have if all of our best trainers and dogs were within drving distance for breeding and training? Their not training better, their not breeding better, and obviously "France and Germany" are not doing any better helper work as we've seen from the past 2 out of 3 worlds!
AKC does not have a Working Dog Program active! AKC on a probationary/testing period has a SchH sport that is being tested by 3 breed clubs (German Shepherd, Doberman, and Rottweiler) I won't continue on the WDS in AKC because it's another topic on this board and don't want this thread altered. I would be happy to discuss this direction on that thread.
Raven it wasn't a blast on working v. show so I apologize for giving you that impression. It was only meant as an example to the extreme vice that ssteff wanted to take to prove a point. I've been in it too long to get drawn into a work v show debate. It's the creation/evolution debate of teh dog world;)
EMLIMINATE BITEWORK? Yeah isn't that what all the show/conformation ppl want? Then all dogs become more equal now doesn't it? Shit...leave it to the French to f* it up for all of us!
I don't think there are a lot of people who think bitework should be eliminated, at least I don't. I really can enjoy good biting work and even though I just own "show dogs" in your opinion, that doesn't mean I don't like watching a Belgian Shepherd work in IPO or ringsport. I don't know what makes you think all the show/comformation people want to eliminate bitework.
EMLIMINATE BITEWORK? Yeah isn't that what all the show/conformation ppl want?
No this isn't what show people want. I trained Belgian Ring with my show champion for a 1.5 year and what drove me away were the work people who constantly full of themselves and their dogs. Basically I was ignored because I told them after a while I never wanted to compete. My dog enjoyed it enormously but I just got fed up with the people.
I wonder if the World Championship working dogs are so strong why did I see working dogs in the show ring scared as hell trying to run away leading to elimination because of character. One of these dogs competed at the World Championships.
So please give it a rest.
What will kill biting work is the general opinion who don't even know what went on in Le Toucquet. They consider biting sports are a certainty for agressive dogs and society doesn't want it so I wouldn't be suprised if there would come bans on these sports in maybe 10 to 15 years.
Saskia
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
In this case i congrats the USA with the world championchip, but the treat isn't about who has the best breeding programm or the best dogs, why did Ivans dog had only 94 in C and not 100? You know what the real problem is, is that there are some decoy's who can handle fast dogs all over the world and there are less then 10. And that is why such things happend in Le Touquet. The problem in IPO is allso while the most decoys have to use a hardbiting arm and i prefer to use a arm that is softer then a hard arm. Then the impact isn't that hard. Allso I learn the decoys to leave some space between the body and the arm. I train now mondio-ring and the injury level what I have seen isn't that high because off the costume it is soft. Allso decoys who aren't technical there is a little level off injury. I don't say mondio is better but the injury level is lower. Allso the breeders in Europe are breeding faster and hard hitting dogs and the training is getting more technical. The dogs in some countries are trained to hit in the middle of the body from the decoy and iff a decoy moves to early to the right or left the dog moves the other way and the decoy is getting insecure with situation and.... then you as an handler have a problem. I know all these tricks as a decoy. I have been there, i have trained in on off the best club in Germany and with the best decoy's in Germany. I had as a decoy on the arm hard hitting dogs and i know how short the reaction time is and how to react. My results as decoy can speak for them self. 3 times after another on the Dutch Ch. for B.S. 2 after another on the FCI W.C qualifing in holland. 4 after another best helper from Holland. First decoy from another country to do the Belgium Ch. B.S. 2-big trails as a decoy 1 in holland and 1 in Belgium CAC-IT and some small ones in Germany and holland. Trained with big names Wasi Broumas, Frank Steffens, Armin Buschmann, Kim Hechler, Geert Verlinden. So I know what i speak about and i know iff a decoy as quality or not. And what i have written in the first topic is what i have seen and it will not change till the judges stop there politics instead off choosing the best decoy's and open there eyes when a decoy is doing a bad job and then the judge must step in and protect the other dogs before something real bad is going to happen. Like in this case. The problem is allso in the clubs they push the young decoys to fast and they have to small expierence. The decoy's from this FCI W.C. where the same 4 as the 4 who were selected for the W.C. in Ambes but due to Rabiës it didn't start. But you must seen it like this France is the country where the top dog sport is frenche-ring , mondio-ring and campagne there is a small selected group who do IPO. But the rumour that the decoys where ring decoys isn't true. Both off the decoy where only 5 years in a costume that is not responceble and little expierence with fast dogs. An error can happen but not like that a dog breaks something.
As a helper myself.... I do not like to criticize another helpers especially a trial helper at a big event....(plus I was not there) I am sure these helpers felt bad about the injuries they caused... Let's say I have seen better work and it is very unfortunate the dogs got badly injured. My thoughts and prayers go out to the dogs and their handlers.... I wish them a speedy recovery.
On a side note.... The SchH USA helper committee has done an excellent job with the helper program... They have taken big strides to improve the program....We have a classification system that ranks the helpers skill level. A certified helper needs to re certify every four years... Regional and Nationally ranked helpers must re classify every two years. Even the teaching helpers have to re classify and if your skill has improved you get re classified (bumped up to another level) they can bump you down a level as well.... I even heard at one point that a physical test would have been needed to become a helper (which I believe should have passed) but got shot down... Some what like the certification for FR decoys... having to be able to run and have good foot work and knowing all the SchH routines by heart..... and most importantly ENDURANCE!
This is a step in the right direction by the SchH USA Helper Committee showing they are committed to the safety of the dogs and putting safe and able helpers out there to work our events... and SAFETY being PARAMOUNT!
Good luck with your training in whatever sport you have chosen.
My girlfriend took an interview with them for a wellknown German workingdog magazine. They told her that they where only since 5 years in costume and that they didn't have problems with fast dogs. Allso they told that some of the injured dogs where allready injured when the went on the field but that doesn't sound logicall does it. But what you told we about the qualification for a the SCH decoy in USA in olland we have this Circus every year. Allso for the reginal decoy's iff they make 96 or higher the can go to the A-weekend and only an A-decoy in holland is allowed to be a decoy at an CAC-IT trail. We have the qualfication a C-decoy is from 70 till 89 points an B-decoy is from 90 till 95 and an A-decoy is from 96 till 100 and your judged by 3 judges. In Belgium you must follow some studies first theorie and then the real thing allso they have an fiscicall test in there judging the decoy's.
Mike, pretty late reply, I finally get the "abomination" thing.......to many boards to monitor sometimes.
I was talking the show people, and I did not make that clear at all. I mean the show people here in the states to make sure I stay clear.
Until 2000, I still went to dog shows to see clients trying for OB titles. I could not stand the people that wanted to take the drive out of the Mal and make it a better dog for show. I heard this over and over and over. I watched perfectly good pups get punished for basically being a Mal.
Again, sorry so late, and I definatley was not clear.
SchH USA grades helpers by the number of dogs recorded in their helper books... meaning the number of dogs the helper as worked in club, regional & national level trials. The number of dogs worked & the SchH level of the dogs SchH I,II & III gets recorded down in the helper's book by a USA judge or SV judge. Then when the helper goes for his re certification, the teaching helper has the final say if the helper will advance up to the next level or higher. Other factors that get taken into account are the helpers safety and knowledge of the different SchH routines and the helpers athletic ability plays a factor as well.
As a helper myself.... I do not like to criticize another helpers especially a trial helper at a big event....(plus I was not there) I am sure these helpers felt bad about the injuries they caused... Let's say I have seen better work and it is very unfortunate the dogs got badly injured. My thoughts and prayers go out to the dogs and their handlers.... I wish them a speedy recovery.
I wished you where there becaue it isn't easy to show people on an mpeg film what really went wrong there. For some dogs the season is over and mabe there sports-carreer. It is a sham that the FMBB didn't step in what they should have done. Think it like this how would you feel if it happend to your dog? If I am qualified for an W.Ch. I expect that there will be decoy's from good qulity and not some lumberjack iff you know what i mean. Maybe you all think I am pulling some old strings, maybe I am but the fact is there and the problem will not go away iff we train our decoy's much better. There is no system that is better than the other one iff we have judges that pull "good decoy's"in front. For me a good decoy is good when he can take on a fast dog and select the dogs in a fair way. But when a "green" decoy comes on a big event he will show the people what he can and do things he can not controle and then the judge have to step in when such thing happen. We all can say it is a shame or some other things maybe we togather should say something, I don't know but something must be done.
Meneer vanstalle bjorn, alvorens u de hondenwereld op zijn kop zet met allerlei beschuldigingen zou u veel beter eens de officiële cijfers nazien. u stelt in uw topic dat er 17 honden gekwetst zijn. Waar haalt u deze gegevens vandaan? Er zijn 3 honden gekwetst, dat klopt. Je moet ook weten dat er een hond op het terrein kwam die al eerder niet volledig in orde was, maar het nagelaten heeft om dit te mekden. gevolg, verzwaring van zijn kwetsuur. akkoord, de pakwerkers hebben fouten gemaakt, tijdens de voorafgaande testen werden geen gebreken vastgesteld en hun werk was dan ook niet 100% negatief te noemen. de fragmenten die op het net circuleren moet je in een andere context zetten. Als een hond die in de beet zit tijdens het lopen van de pakwerker zijn lichaam zover naar achter kan draaien totdat zijn achterhand tussen de benen van de pakwerker komt, wie maakt dan de fout??? alle sporten bevatten een risico, de één al hoger dan de ander, iemand afbreken kost een persoon slecht één zin, omgekeerd ben je jaren bezig. als jij alle zo veel beter kan dan zie ik u graag in het pak op een terrein.
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I've been in it too long to get drawn into a work v show debate. It's the creation/evolution debate of teh dog world;)
